QUESTION 1: “Was eavesdropping ...” - I would rather have the the point made without the extra embellishments.  I found myself skip reading some parts.

QUESTION 2: “When you read these words...”
-This is radical.  I told myself there wasn’t enough information presented to agree with the writer.

QUESTIONS 3: “Has this been your experience ...”
I often wonder if the understood what I’ve told them.  But, in reading this book the author is assuming I have something to do with “salvation”.  I thought that was the work of the Holy Spirit.  Sure, there are ways to effectively communicate anything in our culture, but it doesn’t guarantee our rate of success in delivering the good news pitch is suddenly going to go up because we’ve found the right “hot words” to put along with it.

At some point, it will dawn on “Bible believing” evangelicals that it’s a scandal that they have no idea what the “good news” was, according to Jesus.

All that churchin’, all those Bible studies, all that preaching, all that personal Q.T., all those camps and youth ministers and pastors and Christian books—and they missed it.

It’s too bad, too, because the good news is very exciting, and a lot of people actually want to hear it, and few Americans have.

I wish I had thought through this more when commenting on the first 40 pages over at the Static book forum.

I guess I would rather Ron teach us more directly.  I have trouble following the progression of his argument when he’s going in and out of story mode.  My wife likes the conversational approach very much, however.  It’s the first thing she mentioned when I let her read a little bit of the book to me aloud on a long road trip.

“…why do people have to drag it [specifics of salvation] out of Jesus…?” I thought, “Oh, really?  I’ve got to check that out.” About the demon possessed girl, I thought, “I don’t see a clear connection (not clear enough to use the word ‘apparently’) between Paul’s rebuke and the importance he places on salvation.” I always thought the point of the story is “demon possession is bad.” But then again, I think Paul let the girl follow them a while in her possessed state.

I’ve not always hit brick walls when talking about salvation (what I’ve always thought of as “the gospel”).  I hit walls when I tried to tell it to someone who didn’t ask, who wasn’t searching.  Even in the absence of a “conversion,” I’ve not felt like the message was poorly communicated or ineffective if the listener received it openly.  The absence of results might mean that there is a problem with our communication, but not necessarily.  In many cases with me, however, I believe it has.  It’s ineffective when I don’t love the person with whom I’m talking.  If I’m not willing to pour my life into someone, to put forth the effort to help them be a disciple of Jesus (listening, answering questions, teaching, serving and serving with), the listener will receive the message as enthusiastically as he might a man beating a gong in his bedroom at 5 a.m.

Brant, I’ve read your words many times where you’ve said that most evangelicals have no idea what the “good news” is, but I have yet to hear you explain what it is even after asking you to explain specifically what it is on your blog.  This is becoming tiresome, and though certainly not true as I honestly believe, may lead one to think that you have become puffed up in your knowledge and just make these leading comments to elevate you, the learned, from us, the simple.  I tried to do a search on your blog for the word ‘gospel’ to make sure I didn’t miss anything but found that hard to do with the absence of a search widget there.  I’ve read N.T. Wright at your suggestion and am half way through “Static” at Shaun’s suggestion, but I still want to know how you explain “the gospel.” Simply stating “the kingdom of heaven is at hand” does not convey the excitement you say we all should have about this, so please elaborate… o.k. I found this.  I guess I’m still waiting for you to “get back to it.”

I wrote that last night, and thought, “That sounded too smarty-pants,” so I’m not surprised at your reaction.  I apologize.  I was last-second typing before tucking kids in.

Jesus’s gospel is not the atonement, though that’s part of it.  We’ve become atonement-centric ("Jesus died for your sins and now you can go to heaven") in our understanding of “gospel”, and I do think it’s to our great detriment.

The Kingdom message is that God has not abandoned His people, and He’s not only working toward restoring His creation, He’s allowing us to play a role in that restoration.  God’s Kingdom is where His rule and reign is reality.  Restoration happens in many ways, but it’s all truly good news.  Jesus’s healings and, ultimately, His resurrection—defeating death—show that evil will not have the final word, the lame will, in fact, leap like deer, the deaf will hear, and things will be set right.

The gospel of the Kingdom cannot be summed up in one or two paragraphs, though, which may be the source of some frustration for you with me.  But I’m not question-dodging.  Jesus himself told one story after another on different facets.  “The Kingdom is like...” and left people without thorough explanation.

I think we know it when we see it.  We watch Extreme Home Makeover and see glimpses of restoration, of justice, of things put right, of evil not being allowed the last word.  Anyone, believer or not, can see these things and get goose bumps.  When we see sacrificial love, love for the vulnerable, or the underdog winning—we get a glimpse of what God’s kingdom looks like.

The Kingdom means—finally—“shalom” peace restored to us as individuals, and ultimately, to the world.  It just wasn’t how many Jews expected when they heard Kingdom-talk.  It was better.

It’s not just about “blood covers my sins, now I go to heaven.” It’s much more, much better than that.  People really do have the impression that we (Christians) are all about the next world (thanks to a lot of our hymns) and not caring enough for the people in this one, not caring enough about setting things right, not responding to evil.  But the Kingdom gospel is good news:  God has not abandoned us, has not let evil win, and is setting things right.  He is leading us out of exile (central for first century Jewish understanding) in ways we hadn’t anticipated:  the slavery we’re in to sin, and the promised land awaits after all.  And He’s letting us play a role in setting things truly right.  Good news, indeed.

I don’t think I did a very good job there, but I hope it beats my previous seeming refusal to write about it.  It’s just daunting because there’s so much to it.  I again apologize for coming off wrong—you’re totally right on.  I’m also kinda sorry for derailing the book study, if I did.

Thanks, Brant.  That was great.

No derailing of the book study. . .I think you are actually pretty right on.

While this book talks about our language and the words we use to communicate, it is about so much more.  It is about “self-restoration.” It is about getting rid of all the junk we have learned and doing some real investigating on our own about what words mean and how they have affected and formed us.  Only then can we even have these conversations with others.

This is a journey for all of us, even those who aren’t Christ followers.  Just b/c there path is different from mine right now, I can’t de-value the path they are on.  God is working in everyone, right?  It stinks that we have alienated so many people by using different language and being so judgmental.

Tracy said:

“This is a journey for all of us, even those who aren’t Christ followers.  Just b/c there path is different from mine right now, I can’t de-value the path they are on.  God is working in everyone, right?  It stinks that we have alienated so many people by using different language and being so judgmental.”

And that made me cringe.  Don’t know if you meant it in a PC-tolerance fashion (i.e. all religions go to heaven).  But I’ll stop here and let you clarify before I stick my foot in my mouth.

Yea, Ryan. . . a little confusing.

I definitely don’t mean it like that.  But, God did call us to love people.  That we can’t dispute.  Where I struggle is how to do that in a way that doesn’t compromise what I believe or come across as judgmental to them.  So, I look for God’s work in their journey.  It’s there, whether they acknowledge it is or not.  I think this book really speaks to some of the words that don’t seem very loving. 

Now, will that help me in my conversations?  Not really sure.  To me, the frustrating part is that, no matter how we package it, sometimes people just don’t want to hear it.

Thanks for the clarification Tracy. 

I’m grateful that all I’ve been asked to do is have “the conversation” - how someone reacts isn’t my responsibility.

Good point!  The control freak in me sometimes forgets that!

As of now I am only half way through the book, but I do have some questions. 

What makes the author qualified to say this is what repent, kingdom, and salvation meant when Jesus said them?  Could those words changed meaning from the time Jesus said them to the time that the Gospels were written?  Just think about it.  What does the word burn mean to you?  If you grew up in the eighties it meant something different then let say if you grew up in the seventies. 

Could the reason why people have such trouble sharing their faith and getting people to understand why coming to Christ is so important have to do with no discipleship training?  How many of you, like me, gave your life to Christ were baptized and then were left on your own to figure it all out?  Sort of like, you are now saved time to move on to the next person…. 

Thomas

I think Ron is a pretty inteligent man. Going back to the original Greek and Hebrew could help support his definitions. Also finding the terms used in writings of the same time period and area other than the scriptures and comparing how they were used in scripture does make it pretty interesting as well.
P.D.

Q1 - I found the conversation distracting. I’d have much rather had a more direct approach.

Q2 - I think if we look at the surrounding verses we see that this girl is a fortune teller and she had been following Paul and Silas for many days.  I agree with Ryan in saying that there is not enough evidence to support his conclusion.

Q3 - I agree that most Christians see the ultimate point of salvation as their ticket to Heaven. I’ve seen pastors measure the effectiveness of their ministry by the # of baptisms/member growth.  I think its a problem within the churches and needs to be rectified.  As to personally hitting a brick wall, I honestly am not usually out-right “sharing the gospel” with people.  Very few times have I led someone down the “Roman Road”.  I think evangelism is more about getting to know someone, becoming their friend, helping them through tough times, and being a light in this world than it is about the “right the to say at the right time”.  Programs like “Way of the Master” that protray evangelism like carpet bombing are detramental to what should be going on.  Is it the message thats the problem, or the fact that we still think its words and not actions that convey the message the best.

I am going to read a chapter at a time, to keep up with this.

So far I find the conversational method a little bit cheesy. 

As far as the Paul and Silas story, I need to go back and re-read the passage, which I haven’t done yet.

The times I have talked about my personal faith with others has usually been within the context of a relationship.  I don’t feel like I’m hitting a brick wall, because I usually am not pushing for some sort of answer.

I’d like to talk about the Kingdom again.  There may be a lot of Christians who only see salvation as their ticket to heaven, but I grew up in a conservative Evangelical home and never thought that was the end of the story.  I think a lot of times, it is the beginning step.  Humans are selfish.  We often want to know there is some benefit for us when we make a decision.  But I think with proper discipleship and the process of sanctification, that changes and we see the bigger picture.  I don’t think we necessarily see it straight away in the beginning.  I still don’t see it fully.  Maybe I’m missing something you’re saying, Brant et al., but so far nothing you’ve said is like Oh my gosh!!!!  I’ve never heard that before!  Or maybe I just don’t know the “go to Heaven only” people of which you speak.

Please keep in mind, I’m still in chapter one.

Amy --

I’m glad you had a different experience.  But I’ve literally stood in front of hundreds at a time, and asked what Jesus major theme in His teaching was.  “Money?” “Hell?” —never once (!) have I gotten the answer “The Kingdom of God.” Never once.

And those are Christian high schools and church groups.  I’ve even asked the question on the radio, “What do you suppose the ‘good news’ was the Jesus was asking his disciples to go and share, and they went and shared, before He died?”

One man knew, with a heavy Haitian accent.  “The Kingdom is here!” Then a bunch of calls from people, “I never thought about it.  How could there be a gospel before Jesus died?”

They think it’s exclusively the atonment—on an individual level, too—and going to heaven. 

Again, if your experience is different, your evangelical church taught a theology of the Kingdom-as--gospel, that’s wonderful.  I honestly don’t think that’s typical.

CaliAmy, I meet people every night on the road who claim to have never heard about “the kingdom of heaven” as a thing in the present or heard that they were saved FOR something and not just FROM it.

A sixty something grandmother held me and wept in a church lobby a couple months ago, just sobbing and saying, “No one ever told me what I was saved for.  Why didn’t anybody tell me what I was saved for?”

It was a major shift in her thinking that, in her words, changed her life.

Ok, when you put it like that, I can see what you’re saying.  (people really say money?  that’s depressing) I think there’s a fair bit of truth to what Thomas said...lack of discipleship.  Often, when someone chooses to follow Christ, they start attending church but there’s little actual discipleship, especially in a traditional church format. 

I’m really glad both of you are helping to bring exposure to the truth.  And I’m excited to read the rest of the book, because I’m sure that I’ll learn a lot.

dudes.  i’m proud (in the good sense) to call ya’ll my brothers and sisters.  Thanks for loving one another…

uyggmhj uiyi kjhv uigil bjbh ublkh huh h ui hi hihu h yt6tf e ljhy v

people of springfield