I bet you just can’t wait for the hate mail to role in...good job Shaun, I’m looking forward to the comments.

Now, Shaun, surely you don’t mean that not everyone agrees with the theology of the ordained leadership?  Or that not everyone holds the exact same preferences and desires for how to do church?  That almost implies that these are people with the potential to disagree, even disassociate from one another - and when has that ever happened?

(Sarcasm over.)

I always laugh a little at the churches that put up a sign saying “We preach from the bible and sing from the hymnal.” That is another set of code words, just to let people know where they stand.  But at the same time, it elevates the temporal (songs, music style) to equality with the eternal (word of God).  I have other things to worry about than it a song came from a newer or older publishing company.

I also come from “the inside.” In fact, First Baptist Ft. Lauderdale is the church I was “born” into.  I joke that I was “born on a Wednesday and in church the next Sunday,” but it’s true.  That very church in fact.  My father was a deacon there and my mom sang in the choir.  My sister was married in that church. Somewhere, in a box with other relics, I have a copy of the LP the church did with all the various choirs singing on it.  I was in the 4 and 5 year old group then.  Yep, graded choirs, “Training Union,” Mission Friends, GAs, RAs, Acteens, etc.  All part of my vocabulary. 

I grew up firmly believing that you must be a Christian to get to heaven (still believe that by the way).  I also believed that if you weren’t Southern Baptist, you might be a Christian, but somehow “less” because you obviously didn’t “get it” enough to be Southern Baptist. 

I haven’t been a member of a SBC church since 1996.  Not necessarily by choice (living overseas will eliminate SBC options for sure), but having experienced other Baptist churches and other churches in general, I’m not sure I’d fit in too well there anymore.  Too formal, too routine, etc.  Many reasons really, not the least of which is several “proclamations” by their “pope.”

More important to me now is what is actually being taught, is scripture adhered to on EVERY topic, no matter what, how the body is impacting their local community as well as the larger community, and how are they discipling their youth and adults.

Beth

I work with baptists on the state convention level everyday and its interesting how a lot of what you said even applies that high up the leadership chain. 

On a side note, the new “Baptist Hymnal” comes out next month (although, you can already purchase them) and has many songs with writers with names like Matt Redman, Chris Tomlin, and Tim Hughes right along side Wesley and John Newton.  It’ll be interesting when we start seeing signs like “We sing out of the 1975 hymnal” show up.  Oh, and if you ever get a chance to be in a church with a 1975 baptist hymnal (like mine right now), request hymn #20 and try to get through it without laughing.

I grew up Baptist too, but not SBC.  So my experience in similar, but different.  I do think even still they were a little too - how to say it - orthodox, or “tow the line”.  I’ve since learned that democrats aren’t evil and people who believe in evolution aren’t either, although I still argue with them!
I “saw” you at Creation last night on the video!  I was working the Compassion booth and it was so fun!  The only way to do Creation since it’s most definitely a teen crowd!

Taylor, would that be “God of Earth and Outer Space”? (I looked it up online, so I am not really sure.) If this is the song of which you speak, then I’m laughing just at the title!

hymn #20 is the official hymn of SWBTS, or at least was.

I go to a truly not too Baptist baptist church.  We associate with the BGCT and the CBF for missions, but our congregation is pretty ecumenical so we try to honor a spectrum of traditions.  We offer communion every week at the back of the church, but have it corporately every couple of months.  We only have church on Sunday mornings, all other activities are informal.  There are no endless meetings, no turn or burn sermons.  The Old Testament is valued and preached.  There is no alter call or invitation at the end of the sermon and the sermon from the 1st service is dialogical.  And we don’t have hymnals.

Hmmmm....I am fairly “new” to the SBC scene.  Grew up in a Christian denom. church, and married a new Southern Baptist.  However, our marriage started off at SBTS in Louisville, so we got pretty well dunked straight into SBC life.  My husband pastors a smaller church in a small town, and while I do see where you are coming from in your “inner thoughts” of what we mean by those words, I don’t know that we all stand one way or another.  Again, I may have not been around for a lot of the things in the past, I don’t know that it is easy to say we are one way or the other.  I would hope even a “typical” baptist would not hate the things that you say we don’t hate (Ellen, gay people, democrats)...I’m so sad to think that anyone would (admittedly, I’m a pretty big Ellen fan myself).

I don’t know how to type my thoughts out in this little comment, but I think even though I don’t by any means hate those things, I also don’t like the bad rap that baptists get over it either.  The submission stuff I think is WAY blown out of proportion by people who maybe just don’t have a real understanding of it (on both sides of the coin).  And, yeah, my husband and I like beer.  Unfortunately, we don’t dare have any within about 300 miles of home for those who “just wouldn’t understand.” Oh, bleh...I don’t know if I have made any sense one way or another.  I guess just to say that although I can see your thoughts on what we “might” mean by not being “typical”, I also don’t mind some of the things that make us “typical” either, if we know how to do those things in loving ways, not being dumb and loud about it.  Makes sense?  Maybe just to this pastor’s wife....

I understand where you’re coming from, but I feel compelled to say that Dr. Falwell was a great man. He loved the Lord and was often miss quoted or taken out of context. I don’t think the image of a stiff hateful man fits, especially when you see him tackling football players in his suit, or driving on sidewalks to get a rise out of students. He was a good man who wanted to raise a new generation of Champions for Christ (I know I know straight from the horses mouth). He had a passsion to see great things from our generation.

i grew up SBC (although my mom was the first woman admitted in the MDiv program at SWBTS...i think i get my spirit from her)...anyway, this has little to do with your post but while in the dominican we visited two churches.  one haitian church served wine during communion...the other, a dominican church...grape fanta.

i kid you not.

grape fanta.

amen.

Amy C.,
When you say:
“The submission stuff I think is WAY blown out of proportion by people who maybe just don’t have a real understanding of it...”
Do you mean other Christians who interpret certain scriptures differently?

and
“we don’t dare have any within about 300 miles of home for those who “just wouldn’t understand.””
Do you mean “those who Shaun is describing in the above post or you are afraid a congregant might see you and vote your pastor out of church (which makes me think being a “pastor” of a church who votes you in may feel a little like being on Survivor)”

and
When you said “Maybe just to this pastor’s wife.... “
Did you mean “The submission stuff I think is WAY blown out of proportion by people who maybe just don’t have a real understanding of it...” liek maybe you only speak as a pastor’s wife and not an independent woman of God?

Just curious...and a little argumentative.

I grew up in a SBC church. Here in the midwest, if you say that you’re Baptist, some people cringe. They’ve been burned by church (and most churches around here are Southern Baptist). I agree that there’s nothing wrong with going to a SBC church & that they do a lot of good (like the Disaster Relief), but people don’t always see that… so I kind of understand why they say “we aren’t your typical Baptist church.” I think, in effect, they’re saying, “We care about Jesus and we care about you.”

yeah...this is a good post. I’ve definitely done the “Baptist disclaimer”, and we have taken the baptist off our sign. We have the Baptist doctrinal statement still, but we don’t want to attract the “typical Baptists” to something they won’t like, which happened a lot until we took off the title. You definitely can’t judge every church by their sign anymore.

My comment above was a bit snarky, but not this one (I hope).

Shaun, what you describe as a Souther Baptist insider, I can attest to as a non-baptist.  I grew up in, and still attend, churches of Chirst.  My next-door neighbor is an old Disciples of Christ preacher.  We can both say that these same things occur within our denominations (Oh, wait, I almost forgot that we’re not a denomination.  Oh, I guess that was kind of snarky.) And we have no formal leadership on whom to lay blame.  I’ve known plenty who go to pains to describe themselves as different from the stereotypical CoC person - from drinking and dancing to worship styles to the “everyone else is going to hell” theology.

You know, some of these things are good to distance ourselves from; but I don’t think I’ve ever met someone who is really stereotypical.  In too many ways we’ve let ourselves be defined by others, and then believed the definitions.  Because the definition is not strictly true, but still believed, we become ashamed of ourselves.  Just my little theory, in part.

it was great to meet you, shaun. i was there with some friends. we were the ones who showed up 30 minutes late...yeah...i was the pregnant one. thanks for the advice you gave us!!

I’m thinking that you could substitute several different “brands"* of Christianity for “Baptist” and still be right on the money. I grew up Church of Christ and still attend a Church of Christ. In fact, the Church of Christ I attend likes to say that they are NOT a “typical” Church of Christ. And just about everything you said rings true for our “brand” as well. We may not have a defined spokesperson or a governing body that issues press releases about the things we believe in but the sentiment is still the same.

All that to say, this post made a lot of sense to me, too. What do we really mean by “not typical” and what are we really trying to prove? I get that and I see that in my “brand” as well.

*for lack of a better word

I will proudly go to a SBC in the morning. And yes, at night too!  I will sing, raise my hands during worship and maybe even sway a little. . .I don’t remember the last time we used a hymnal but if we did would that be wrong?  Give me some theology from SOME of those old hymns--that’s good stuff.
SBC organizations and individual churches did more for Katrina victims than all other relief organizations combined. We also support many local and overseas missionarys.
Do we always have it right? NO
Does any church, whether a “Typical” denomination or a group meeting in a home. NO! We are human, we screw everything up.
I think our snarking at each other for percieved wrongs gives Satan way to much power.
And,yes I dance (badly) and no I don’t drink.  And I find liberals much more intolerant than a more concervitive person at least 8 out of 10 times.

I hope this doesn’t go under the catagory of ‘hate’ mail.  Because, I truely apperciate Shaun and his ablity to get me to think, smile and sing along!

These days… does any church want to be considered a “typical” anything?

Yet 99.99% of them still follow the “typical” concert/lecture style.

(yes, I am feeling somewhat snarky tonight...)

--Brad

This rings true on so many levels.

The church my Dad pastored for 20 years started as a Baptist church. But here in the Upper Midwest, the word Baptist has all kinds of negative connotations. So the church pulled out of its denomination, dropped the word “Baptist” from its name (but kept the basic theology) and grew by leaps and bounds. For better or worse, there are many, many people who will never enter a Baptist church because of associations, fair or unfair.

But really, couldn’t this whole thing just be said about the label Christian? I know people who won’t call themselves Christian anymore—preferring Jesus-follower or some other new-fangled title—because of the negative association in our culture.

Angie - I think Shawn - the other one was waiting for someone like you to comment…

Whether or not SBC did more for Katrina victims or not can be debated and I have links to argue that MDS and others have and continue to support the area and other areas like recently Iowa - but it’s not the point.  The point to all of this is for us as an entire Church - that being the body and not the buildings we ritually go into every week - which in fact isn’t the church - even in the small c sense - it’s just an over generalized label these days, to get over the labels.  Instead we add the we aren’t typical layer, we’re new, we’re____.

In the end it’s not about us not being like you or them or not typical or even stereotypical, it’s about finding a way to understand that liberals aren’t haters (I’m not), and that we’ve got bigger issues then whether or not the purple tellatuby is gay or not - we’ve have a medical system that is inadequate, we have an education system that leaves African American males behind and males in general, and we can’t seem to realize that we don’t need everything we want, and there are countless individuals right around us who want for what they really need - clean water, a peaceful home, a dry bed. 

When we as those who follow Christ aka Christians, gather together and deal with those issues it won’t matter whether I enjoy a martini on weekends and you won’t even have communion wine.  Hymnals or not (and I do like my hymns - Shawn will tell you that), wine or not, we will be doing what we have been called to do - be the Church, serving and loving without a need to add a disclaimer or a new label

Shawn:
I think it is pretty fine for me to identify myself as “pastor’s wife”, which I am, without there seeming to be an insinuation that I am not an independent woman of God.  I have been a Christ-follower much longer than I have been a pastor’s wife or a Baptist, so I was not giving up one for the other.  I was just trying to say that maybe these thoughts were only making sense to me as I was typing them because they were my own thoughts, and I felt like I wasn’t really conveying them in type the way that they made sense in my head.  I wasn’t trying to belittle myself or my thoughts as a woman of God in any way.

I do think that a lot of people have a wrong understanding of submission, and like I said above, that misunderstanding can go both ways.  I was trying to say that although the part mentioned by Shaun in his post about the submission statement by the SBC may not have been handled in the best way possible, it doesn’t mean that they were wrong.  And that maybe the way they handled the statement (again, I think I became SBC after all of that happened) was not presented well, but it in turn gave them a lot of bad publicity instead of people just trying to get a better understanding of biblical submission. 

My husband and I are a great team...in marriage and in ministry...and I have great love and respect for him.  Sorry I may not have made enough sense above, but it sure doesn’t mean that my identity, role, or beliefs were quite what you were questioning of me.

Amy C,
That would be the difference of questioning and stating. I was being more of a brat to use your words to make the point of the submission thing. I am glad you and your husband make a great team, I think that’s how it should be and I understand it completely.

I guess if I was a member of the SBC I may feel little bit like I do at times being an American and having someone, who I will not name, speak for me and make decisions for me that globally make me look like an idiot.

I just cannot get over the fact we have so many organizations in Christianity that fracture The Church, tear it down, and cause such great division among it. It’s kind of like a really big High School, and Shaun is just calling you “the drama Club” or what have you, whatever club it is people freely join, but never want to say they are part of.

In regards to Jerry Falwell, I remember watching him on the news and saying the terrorists needed to be blown to little bits.  It was a live interview.  I was so sad at the time, because it just didn’t seem right.

It’s sad that Southern Baptists have had so much turmoil.  It’s sad when the body of Christ doesn’t function like we hope it might, and when the work we should be doing on earth gets shoved aside. 

Grace and love.  We need those in heavy portions.

Shawn, I was a member of the drama club, too.
And the president of the French club.  And in band.  I guess I see your point.

After living in several states and attending churches of varying denominations, IMHO, when someone says their church is “not typical” it is their attempt to convince you (and maybe themselves) that they are open to receiving ALL kinds of people into their church body.

The results are variable.

What about the term “Bapti-costal”?  Belonging to a Pentecostal church, I used to kinda chuckle a little to myself because some of my southern baptist friends would use this term just because they sang contemporary music, clapped, and raised their hands during praise and worship at church.  I don’t hear the term used much any more, but I used to hear it quite often a few years ago. a-

i just wanted to let you all know that i am:
#1) famous
#2) offended
#3)grew up severely Baptist

i’ve never commented here shaun, although i do read.
but i think you, euphrony and taylor should know that i am related to the man who wrote “God of Earth and Outer Space.” (hence my “celebrity")

i kid you not.

my mouth fell open and i about fell off my chair when i saw that song mentioned on here!
its not normally a topic i like to bring up, but Thad Roberts is the author of that song. He was like my great uncle or something. I never met him, but he was the music minister at South Main Baptist church in Houston in the 70’s or 80’s.

any man who can write a song using
the words, astronaut, rockets and thrust…
and get it published in the Baptist hymnal…
i’m not sure if that reflects worse on my family or southern Baptists?
probably both.
ha!

Liz:
I hope your #2 is not related to my mentioning of “God of Earth and Outer Space”.  I suppose it might have been inappropriate to poke fun at a song that someone (your great uncle apparently) spent time on and got published (I certainly don’t like it when people criticize my work). I think I find the song humorous because it seems to be a great example of the generational nature of some hymns.  I’m sure there are several hymns being published in this new edition that 30 years from now will seem somewhat laughable.  I do have to admit I was drawn to the almost, for lack of a better description, Russian sounding tune of the song.  I found it in stark contrast to the words when looked at in historical context of the space race and the time period.  I thought it was a nice touch.

Also, I’m a music minister at a small conservative SBC church.  I’ve tried to sneak “God of Earth and Outer Space” into the service a few times, but the Pastor always intercepts the bulletin before its printed. 

Liz, like I said, I had no clue what the song was and had to look it up.  But I stand by my chuckle - hope it doesn’t hurt your feelings.  I’ve laughed plenty of times at the good intentions of my own family (and myself) that turn out unintentionally comedic.  The Houston location and timing makes sense, though.  Living in Houston myself, I know our mania with the space industry.

By the way, I’m looking forward to your post tomorrow for the 40 Day Fast.

An interesting post, and I do find myself saying that at times.  Some background, I was actually raised in a reformed faith presbyterian church (PCA). We had good friends who left our church to join a baptist church (don’t recall its denom), and we even visited a few such churches in an effort to network with other believers.  Many in our church went to a private school which was run by a baptist church (not sure if it was SBC). 

In any case, when I got to college, there was no church of my denomination in that town, there was an Orthodox Presbyterian Church, but for whatever reason, God did not lead me there, although I did visit.  I made a lot of good friends who attended an independent “fundamental” baptist church, and the Lord really used that, along with the campus ministry I was a part of to really correct some doctrinal flaws in my beliefs.  I no longer call myself reformed, I don’t believe in baptizing infants, and most folks would probably call me baptist or fundamental in my way of thinking.  The church we went to in Nitro, was a Bible Church, which with a great pastor flourished under solid baptist teaching.

When we moved to our current residence, we began in a independent baptist church, not much different then the one I used to go to, but I found myself more and more disliking, what I’ve come to term as Hyper-Literalism.  That is taking scripture so literally to use it as a sword, rather than to dispense it as a scalpel with love.  That and a number of other factors, left Bev and I compelled to seek God’s will somewhere else, and we currently go to a “american” baptist church.

I’ll be honest, I’ve never considered myself a baptist, although I know my beliefs in many cases fall right in line with traditional baptist thinking.  I’m a biblicist, first and foremost, and I find my biggest problem with a lot of churches is the continued sticking to the Old KJV only, and then treating those who choose to learn from other versions as somehow second class christians.  Its that kind of behavior, which I suppose, made us feel quite a bit burned by the last church we went to.  Its a shame too, because I believed that God had brought us here to get involved and work with the church, but because of these stones, we were basically forced to sit on the sidelines.  At some point we decided enough was enough, we know the Lord has something for us here, and we went off to find it.  We’ve only been going to this other church for about a year, and its different then most churches I’ve been in.  (The use of an Overhead for music in such a small church is not something I’m used to), but the worship is genuine, the preaching is to the heart and practical, and the people aren’t ashamed to speak to us, love on each other, and be friendly.  If you ask me, its the situation I describe, that has caused some to perhaps call themselves “Not Typical Baptist.” But that’s my Point of View.

euphrony
you don’t have to apologize!
i was being very sarcatic…
i think its hilarious!
i am also sort of connected to AJ Foyt, an old racing legend.
and supposedly Jacqueline Smith (one of the Charlie’s Angels)
But now i am starting to realize that the same crazy grandma told me all these connections and now I’m starting to wonder???
and that is all very funny too.
but not really relevant to this post.
sorry

taylor
again...i’m totally not offended.
i was being really sarcastic.
i guess i didn’t make it super clear that i was making fun of myself and the song!
the song is pretty terrible.
but those lyrics were probably so cutting edge back then, huh?
i mean the author lived in Houston, near NASA. it made sense to him i’m sure

I grew up as a good Independent Baptist.  The only thing I knew about Southern Baptists growing up was that they were liberal.

I’ve been on the “inside” for 30 years, and I’m pretty sure I know of no typical Baptists.  None.  And if I say I’m not typical, I wouldn’t be quoting your italicized paragraph, not all of it.  That’s setting up an alternate stereotype.  In general, we’re just saying something like, “Drop the stereotypes and have an open mind.” That’s all.

Also, I wouldn’t say we have a pope or anyone else in a hierarchical leadership position outside of each local church body although that’s the way its portrayed by the media and seen by others.  Those “leaders” should really just be facilitating cooperation between churches.  Each church is autonomous and is under no obligation to agree with or abide by anything those “leaders” say.  At least, that’s the way it was set up long ago.

Some may not agree or have experienced the things you posted...but I have do agree and have experienced the same thing.

I go to a Baptist church, even though personally I’ve never identified myself with any particular denomination. Here’s the trajectory of churches I’ve regularly attended over the course of my lifetime:

- A Bretheren church
- A non-denominational Charismatic church
- InterVarsity Christian Fellowship
- Two Presbyterian churches
- An American Baptist Church (my current home)

Plus we did a few “ecumenical” services in college where IV collaborated with the Catholic community on campus, and I thought that was pretty cool.

All of this is to say, I don’t find myself defending my denomination often, but I do find myself not striving to be “the typical Christian” often. In actuality, what I don’t want to appear to be is the “typical Christian” seen in the news, who inadvertently seems to espouse bigotry and boycotts and thoughtless knee-jerk reactions to every development in modern culture. (And a lot of the other stuff you mentioned.) There may be some Southern Baptists who feed into that stereotype rather notoriously, but they’re far from being the only ones. Perhaps some groups are better at shutting up and staying out of the way, but then again, one could argue that not contributing to the solution just makes you an implicit part of the problem. So I consider it my duty to break the stereotype while not just breaking all the rules for the sake of breaking ‘em.

But I’m an anomaly no matter how you slice it - white dude in a mostly Asian church that counts a female pastor and a Latino pastor who is a single father among its ranks. To quote Ice Age, “We are the weirdest herd I’ve ever seen.”

Curiously enough, I was involved in two campus fellowships, one was an InterVarsity Chapter at WVU, although I was never able to be completely active as Thursdays ended up being test nights once or twice a month as I recall, but there was that and Campus Light Ministries at WVU, and I found my views, and beliefs were greatly molded by my experiences there.  I agree with you David.  There is too much knee Jerk in the public eye, and not enough show them how Christians can love.  I so agree there.

Veretax:

IV was similarly instrumental in molding some of my views - while I really couldn’t have cared less about denominations before I joined (and this made it relatively easy to get along with people from whatever random churches and traditions), I think I did gain a greater appreciation for some of the more traditional and liturgical forms of worship that I previously scorned because it wasn’t “contemporary” and therefore it wasn’t “cool”. What can I say, I was a teenager who thought hymns were just for old folks before that. We still did mostly contemporary music in IV, but I was exposed to a lot of hymns that were completely new to me during those years (played in a more contemporary style, but with respect to the original melody and intent of the song, usually).

One of the Presbyterian churches I went to on and off during college helped with that a lot, too - they’d have the huge pipe organ and traditional choir for half the worship service and then bust out the guitars and stuff for the second half. It was excellent.

I think a lot of the American Church has it in their minds that love = lenience = liberalism. (The horror!) So they may pay lip service to the concept of Christian love, but in reality, it’s conditional. “Behave as we say you should and then we’ll love you.” Making matters worse is this ugly concept a lot of Christians seem to have that change from the way they’re used to things = the Devil’s work. They don’t seem to go to the trouble of examining whether their own traditions and cultural conditioning are really Biblical. At least, the ones with the loudest mouths don’t seem to.

I find that I have the opposite problem. if something’s new and different and challenges the status quo (at least in terms of what’s allowed versus what’s not), I say bring it on, just to rock the boat and make folks think, but I will admit that sometimes I’m a little too eager to adopt something just ‘cause it’s different. I need to consider more carefully whether what’s allowable is what’s beneficial.

But I’m tired of fighting culture wars, you know? Tired of boycotting stuff because it will supposedly undermine every single Christian value that exists in this society. Tired of trying to tell people who don’t even believe in this Jesus business how they should be behaving. The fact of the matter is, if they’re not Christians, they have no reason to play by my rules. Unless they can get to that first step of knowing and caring about the fact that they need Jesus, it makes no sense to try to correct their behavior. I would rather just have those people know that they are loved, exactly where they are, no matter how much they might have been conditioned to think, “God can’t forgive X and Y” by judgmental members of the Church. If I really know my theology, then I accept that I’m just as much of a sinner as they are anyway. So sure, if they show an active interest in wanting to be more like Christ, I’ll try to help them out and hope that they can do the same for me. But that should be a collaborative effort and not a shouting match to see who can hold their picket signs the highest and make the most obnoxious noise and therefore drive away the opposing view.

I believe in speaking the truth in love, which is a really fine line to walk. Either you forget the love part of it, and you’re just shouting at people that they’re wrong all the time, or you forget the truth part, and confuse people into thinking “anything goes”. It’s easy to go to either extreme, but extremely difficulty to maintain a balance in the middle.

That Disney Boycott was laughable, because Disney owns so much more than just the studios and theme park, just look at ABC (how about ESPN) and its affiliates and then some, I agree with you, Big time.  I do think its important when appropriate to remind folks that homosexuality, for example is a sin as defined by God, but there are ways to do it without beating people up over the head.  So true So True.

We’re on the brink of a HUGE tangent here, but on the homosexuality topic, I think that’s an example of one of those things where it’s easier to either (a) love without being brave enough to speak what you believe to be the truth, or (b) be so busy constantly reminding others of what you believe to be true that you can’t fathom a way to actually love those people.

Our church’s senior pastor still holds the position that it is a sin, but found himself convicted that we can’t truly love people who identify themselves as gay if we’re continually talking at them and not allowing them to share their experiences and struggles with us without them feeling totally and utterly condemned. So he decided to host a conversation at our church on Saturday consisting of himself, a member of our church who was in-between on the issue, and a former member of our church who was gay and believed it to be OK. The object of the discussion wasn’t to change anyone’s views on the subject, it was just to keep a dialogue open and acknowledge that there are differing viewpoints and we still have to find a way to co-exist as believers. This doesn’t mean that people should have to shut up about what they are convicted is true, but I think it takes bravery to show real, honest, true love to a person who you believe to be wrong about something like that. (And for them to be able to love someone who they know considers their lifestyle to be abhorrent.)

Of course there was opposition to this and debate about it within our church, but I really respected our pastor for making that bold move. To me, there are a lot of people who have been beat over the head with the reasons why they are wrong. They get it. They can’t have a conversation with anyone who is a Christian and who knows that they are gay without the person feeling the need to establish that, and how demeaning does that get after a while? There comes a point where you have to accept that you’ve said your piece and you’re still going to love that person despite how stubborn you think they’re being.

I’m pretty sure Jesus did not approve of the prostitution and the extortion practiced by the kinds of people he broke bread with. But I see no evidence that they were required to change in order to hang out with Him and be loved by Him. When Jesus had harsh words, they were usually directed towards the religious elite, who were being legalistic, and the judgmental, who were carrying out harsh punishments against people they didn’t realize were fellow sinners. So I guess that’s why this is where my harshest words tend to be directed as well. Not towards those who have been kicked out by the church and who still desperately need someone to cut through all the B.S. and say, “God loves you, first and foremost, and can never love you any less”, but towards those who are leading this institution and who really should know better than to be constantly holding law over love. (Law still matters, but nobody’s gonna have a reason to want to follow it if the love isn’t there.)

Shaun-

I grew up Conservative Baptist, went Southern in college and tried American for a while after that.  I had to laugh when reading your post, because the language transcends all varities of baptist that I have ever tried out.

I love my so called non-denom church now.  Its very “Northwest”, come as you are, wear what you want, say what you think.  To a point.  Deep down I think all Christians struggle to some degree (somedays more than others) of being caught up in appearances and “code words”.

How wonderful that we have a loving father who takes us as we are and where we are at. 

Over and over again if need be, until we surrender and realize that our relationship with the father and his love that we show to others trancends whatever we decide to call the bread/crackers/body and the juice/wine/blood; and wheather or not we wear a suit/jeans/choir robe on Sunday; and if we “don’t drink, don’t smoke, don’t dance or go with girls that do”.....or not. =)

(Yeah Tangent I know)

I ran face first into this issue my Sophomore year in college.  a Street Preacher came to town with a sign basically telling a list of people were going to Hell.  Now while that may be the truth, it surely wasn’t being told in love, and this guy thought that he was doing this to prove he was better then everyone else.  It opened the door for a conversation with two people on my floor, whom heretofore I had not realized were gay.

The key was they came to ask me what I thought, and I said, frankly while I agree that homosexuality is a sin, his way of going about it was wrong.  I always preface my remarks regarding homosexuality with pointing out that all sins are detestable in Gods eyes, and in revelation the first ones listed are Cowardly Unbelief, and liars, etc.  That adultery and fornication are also sins, and that it isn’t just homosexually that God has a problem with.

I also point out that in my understanding of scripture, all sin was essentially equally detestable, and it seems to be only man that trumps up certain sins as being somehow worse, or less forgivable than others.  I then immediately make sure that I give the bible prescription for sin which is simply put in John 3:16, that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten so that whosoever believeth in him, shall not perish, but have ever lasting life.  I point out that it doesn’t say, except for the homosexual, or except for the liar, or the adulterer, or the thief, the idolater, etc.  The Jesus himself said he came not to draw the righteous but sinners to repentance.  Which practically meant, he came to save those who needed saving.  Now, they may ask me what I think personally, and I may be blunt and say I do not appreciate or condone the homosexual lifestyle.  However, what you do in the privacy of your own bedroom, is between you and God, and frankly not really my business.  My responsibility, in that area I believe is to make it clear, God sent me as a Christian to give them the message of hope and Love of Christ.  Yes, homosexuality is a sin, but Jesus doesn’t ask us to be perfect before being saved.  He just asks for a simple step of faith.  If you believe in his promise to save you from your sins, he’ll take care of each one in turn.

That’s how I feel about it.  The message of Christ is about love and compassion for our fellow man and his condition.  Sure, Homosexuality is a sin, but there is not one thing I as a man can really do to force that person to stop choosing sin.  In fact, I personally believe that according to the Psalms and Romans, that is nigh impossible to choose righteousness without the power of God within us through Salvation.  So in effect I use it as a witnessing opportunity, to get the focus off the sin itself, and onto the real cure and need of that person’s heart. 

Now I haven’t had to discuss this with anyone in a long while.  The Two roommates who had asked for me to speak with them appreciated my being candid and honest, and not beating them over the head with the bible so to speak.  Did they get saved right there? As far as I know they didn’t, but you never know what that little seed may have done. 

Your last paragraphs sums it up, being Christian does it make us better than other men, it just makes us forgiven.  How much we forget that simple thought.

Deep down I think all Christians struggle to some degree (somedays more than others) of being caught up in appearances and “code words”.

I’ve been trying to avoid the “code words” more lately, or at least, to avoid using them without careful consideration of their context and meaning. This especially bothers me when it comes to songwriting, and it’s a big part of the reason I’ve gotten sick of a lot of “modern worship” and your usual Christian radio fare. Too much of the “code word” stuff getting used with a knowing wink, assuming the audience gets the meaning and therefore we can all put our brains on auto-pilot.

Some of these phrases are as old as the Bible itself, so they’re not necessarily bad things to say - we just throw them around lightly without considering the context and intended meaning. A good songwriter will either (a) seek to avoid this by putting the catch phrase they’re tempted to use into different words that describe it in a way that indicates more of a personal meaning to them, or (b) use the phrase in a context that unpacks and offers insight into its true meaning. Maybe even (c) mine it for clever double meanings, but you run the right of building an entire song around a really awful pun if you do that, and unintentional humor is anathema to serious “spiritual” songs, especially of the “worship” variety.

I first would like to say to all those who truly are in Christ that I love you as my family.  I must also say, however, that I am a little disturbed by the over all content of this subject of “Baptists” and some of the individual comments.  I agree with the point that is trying to be made that salvation is through grace and not following “legalistic” formats, as some fundementals do, however, we must understand the larger picture here.  We live now in the last days.  The lines are blurred and many many “mega churches” are leading thousands astray by their soft view of Christianity and their attempts to be seeker friendly.  I think we must understand the severity of the “falling away” that is happening and instead of getting on the baptists and making light of their hymnal books we should be defending their strictness and stance on God’s absolute holiness that isnt being taught anymore.  I grew up in a legalistic church and I fully agree that there is very little grace taught, but we need not capitalize on that and tear down but to edify one another.  Finally, the Apostle Paul was very clear on behaving in a way that would not be a stumbling block to those weaker in the faith.  The comment about liking beer and even dancing my be in jest but we need to be very careful about the image we display as believers.  The God of the old Testament called his children to come out and be ye seperate.  We are to bear no likeness to the world.

Funny, my take on the “last days” was that we’d been living in them for about 1,975 years now (give or take a few years for historical inaccuracies to offset the assumption that Jesus was actually born in 1 A.D.)

Regardless of that, today could be any person’s “last day”, so regardless of individual views on weird pre/post/whatever-millenial theology and so forth, the fact remains that any of our “worlds” could end at a moment’s notice. The urgency never went away. I don’t really need trumped-up hype about Armageddon and the tedious twelve-part novels and bad movie adaptations that come along with it to convince me of that urgency, personally.

The fact is that legalists in many denominations are giving God a bad name. So are people who throw out the law altogether and act like God doesn’t care about out behavior. There has to be some way that people can see how being Christians actually changes us and betters our lives. So we do have to still speak the truth. But I don’t think it’s wise to accuse all churches who are not as fundamentalist as you are of going “soft” and questioning whether they’re really getting people saved. Grace saves people, not works. Grace is a pretty basic concept that even the most inept and immature of Christians oughta be able to understand. If one don’t get that concept, I don’t know how one would have ever felt compelled to be part of this whole Christianity thing in the first place. Because earning salvation has got to be about one of the most fruitless and frustrating (not to mention impossible) tasks in existence. And it really sucks that we’ve still got so many people in our culture still assuming that Christianity is like all these other religions in the sense that it’s all about goodie-two-shoes people earning God’s favor. We really screwed up if that’s what they still think we believe after all these years.

Being seeker-sensitive does not mean being apostate. I think the term “seeker-friendly” gets a bad rap because it carries that connotation of being all hush-hush about sins so that we’ll avoid offending people. That’s not what it’s about. Ideally, it’s about stripping back a lot of the cliches and conventions of our subculture - the jargon that is impenetrable or off-putting to your average outsider, and getting to the heart of the Gospel in its simplest form.

Vertex - Good points again. This is becoming a pattern with you!

I guess my bottom line is that I care more about someone knowing, understanding, and believing the fundamental truths of all men being sinners and needing God’s grace, and God extending that grace to all through the sacrifice of His Son. Accept that, and your eternity is secure. Even if you don’t manage to stop being a lying, thieving, constantly drunk gay porn addict within this lifetime.

That doesn’t mean I shouldn’t still tell you my best understanding of what the Bible says about lying, stealing, drunkenness, homosexuality, lust, etc. If I believe God gave us boundaries regarding those things because He loves us and wants to protect us from unnecessary harm to ourselves and others, then I have every reason to warn you about these things. I don’t expect you to believe me or care if we haven’t established the foundational agreement about this Jesus guy and why you should care what He has to say. But once we’ve got that baseline in place, then sure, it should logically follow that you’ll want the better quality of life that can be gained by not having to suffer the consequences of the folly known as “sin”. Because God will forgive your sins, and still love you every bit as relentlessly, but you might still suffer some unsavory consequences that naturally follow from the things you do. I’m not gonna play softball when it comes to wanting to spare that friend the heartache.

But at the same time, I know a lot of the reasons why shouldn’t do certain things, and I still do some of them with alarming frequency. I do not do what I want to do. And I suffer consequences sometimes - not because God takes glee in punishing me, but because it just plain makes sense that if I steal from somebody, I’ll likely get arrested for it. If I lie to somebody, it will undermine the trust in that relationship. So on and so forth. I think it helps to understand that these rules are not arbitrary, but instead there to protect us. That gives us a lot more incentive to follow them, if we can see God’s wisdom and genuine love in building those fences and saying, “Don’t go beyond the fence if you know what’s good for you.”

I’m a dumb little sheep sometimes; I go beyond the fence the shepherd has built, I can’t find my way home, and I get attacked by wolves and whatever else is out on the prowl. It’s my own fault. Jesus still puts forth a heroic amount of effort to find me and lead me back. And I don’t believe that any amount of wandering outside of that fence is going to make Jesus go, “That’s it, I’m sick and tired of chasing after this one.”

I point all this out because there are still people who believe you have to stop sinning in order to be saved. I think that’s bad theology. I would certainly encourage you to curtail sin with every amount of effort you can muster. But no matter how much you fail at this, I would never insinuate that you had somehow revoked your membership in the community of Christians by doing this. Shoot, realizing that you were like this is what caused you to want to join the club in the first place, right?

Some Christians don’t like to hear that kind of talk. It bothers them that they spend so much time trying to do the right thing, and some other loser could potentially show up and say, “I really believe in this Jesus stuff”, but then proceed to break every rule in the book and still go to Heaven in the end. That ticks people off. It feels unfair. And that, in my mind, is the definition of grace.

David, it seems as though maybe the heart of my post did not come through and that is partly to do with the fact that this is internet and typing can not convey what face to face can.  I just love God so much and have experienced so much pain in my life that I know God and his holiness.  As far as the last days comment, yes it has been the last days ever since Christ, however if you read the epistles to Timothy, Jude and the like you will see that this present time is like no other.  Also, when I say seeker friendly I am speaking of the 5k member churches with “itching ears” that want to be told that they are ok not the churches that genuinely want to reach the community.  My whole point in a nutshell is we are all to be in one body working together like Paul’s epistles admonish us to do.  I am just grieved because that isnt happening.  Thanks for the post

David, it seems as though maybe the heart of my post did not come through and that is partly to do with the fact that this is internet and typing can not convey what face to face can.

I got the heart of it. I thought didn’t think the “last days” bit was relevant to the core of your argument.

As far as the last days comment, yes it has been the last days ever since Christ, however if you read the epistles to Timothy, Jude and the like you will see that this present time is like no other.

Every time is a time like no other. Culture has changed and will continue to change. It also changes based on where in the world you are. And Christians have to adapt to that, in any time and place, and find cunning ways of working with it to get out point across, without letting temporary human culture dilute the teaching God’s permanent truths. That’s the whole “being in the world and not of it” thing. I think we agree on this much.

Also, when I say seeker friendly I am speaking of the 5k member churches with “itching ears” that want to be told that they are ok not the churches that genuinely want to reach the community.

There are probably 50-member churches that are just as guilty. Though you are right in pointing out that this approach is likely to attract more people. That’s why I’m usually wary of big churches. But we can’t lump all big churches into that category. The church I’m part of is getting rather big, which astonishes me because the leadership regularly challenges the congregation’s thinking, and history has shown that congregations usually shrink instead of grow when you dare to suggest that the “abundant life” promised to Christians is not necessarily an easy life.

I think we agree on our fundamental points, but I’m going with “no man knows the day or the hour” and sticking to my conviction that God could call us all home tomorrow or call our descendants home 10,000 years from now, and neither one would change the urgency of our current situation as far as I’m concerned. Sorry, but I’m just weary of the “End Times” being constantly thrown in my face. In my experience, it’s usually just an exaggerated way of expressing disagreement with the current political climate. The human race has been through worse before, and God didn’t say, “That’s it, game’s over” then.

David,

We are in agreement here, in the end, of the last days, I’d like to be remembered for taking two minutes to give a simple gospel message to an unsaved homosexual, then to be remembered as a man who spent an hour railing against their sin alone. 

Grace, as far as these ‘weak’ churches you cite, there is a cure, be in the bible daily, compare it with what is being preached, and if any word does not line up, then something is very very wrong.

Otherwise, I think David summed up my views.

Shaun,
I am a typical suit wearing, baptizing, cracker and juice, baptist. I love the Baptist church I pastor and am having the time of my life.
We help support over 10,000 missionaries world wide thru our typical Southern Baptist Convention.

In our community thru our typical Baptist church we support financially and thru service our local crisis center (the land for this center was donated by a typical Baptist Association) Habitat for Humanity, prison ministry...etc..

We also have made over 10 typical trips to Gulfport Mississippi to partner with the NC Baptist men after Katrina. Look them up and their typical mission work.  They have served over 1 million meals free and have rebuilt hundreds of home. Pretty typical Baptist stuff. 

I wonder how many of the non typical churches are doing. I wonder how many non typical churches still visit the elderly, widows and make hospital visits weekly. I wonder how many non typical churches disciple their members. I wonder how many hand clapping non typical churches throw 100,000 per week to pull of the show really worship or just respond to music. I wonder how many are consumers of worship and not producers.

i am glad and proud to be a typical Baptist.

I am mystified by the fact that among all the differing opinions, etc. on Baptists (SBC and otherwise) that no one seemed to pick up on the number of children sponsored at this event.  14 children according to the post. 

14 children sponsored in a congregation of over 12,000 members.  Now, knowing that the SBC counts it’s membership from “cradle to grave” and that of that number, approximately 5,000 or so are active members.  I wonder how many people attended the concert.  Of those, how many already sponsored children?  Were each of those sponsored taken by a different person/family? 

A cursory glance at FBC FTLs website will let you know about all the programs and missions, etc. that they have going on and I’m NOT diminishing their importance in ANY way.  It takes A LOT of money to do what they do and they seem to do it well.  I can’t help but wonder though if less was spent on flash, and more on poverty, how many more kids might have been rescued that night.

Beth

Being a bit different, or not your grandfather’s flavor, is nothing new to Christianity.
Why, doesn’t the name “Baptist” denote a difference of doctrine you adhere to vs. a Presbyterian or Methodist,...and surely a Catholic.
Somewhere in the association of ourselves with Christ, the word Christian became the old flavor so we needed something new, seperating us from the old.
I suggest that in all things we give the Lord the glory, even in the names we wear.  Since God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, the old can most certainly be a righteous state in Him, as can the new.

Steve
Nashville Tennessee

I think the name of a denomination may describe differences of doctrine, but it may also describe differences of tradition - not necessarily “we disagree with everyone else”, but possibly just “we prefer to do things this way”. But then I’m not really up on the definitions of all these terms. I tend to not worry about it too much, because any church I go to is gonna have hypocrites and other unsavory sinners in it (and if I attend, there’ll be one more!), and any church I go to is gonna have people that love the Lord. Well, at least that’s a bare minimum requirement. What clinched a choice of church for me was not a denomination or label or people looking like me, or shopping around for the exact right worship style or facilities on the church grounds, but rather, the sense that I’d be able to build community with the people there, and so far, that’s been an awesome experience that has trumped any theological or cultural differences I’ve had with people there.

It’s great that 14 kids got sponsored - that’s 14 more than the day before.  I doubt those 14 kids are concerned about what kind of Baptist is helping them.

Jennifer,

I completely agree!  I wasn’t saying anything about the denomination, but rather the size of the congregation vs. the number of sponsorships.  I was the promoter for a show for Shaun earlier this year (one of 3) where only 20 college kids showed up.  5 kids were sponsored from that show!  I don’t know how many people showed up for this latest show, but I’d be willing to bet it was more than 20. 

Beth

I just said a very quite Southern Baptist “Amen!”
The good of the Southern Baptist denomination definitely outweighs the bad.  I think we need to stop worrying too much about who we’re offending and start thinking about why they’re offended.  Most of the time, people are offended by churches because they know they are guilty of something and need Christ.  They get mad at churches because they show them how lost they really are.  The problem is when churches go about this the wrong way.  We need to be Jesus to the world and speak the truth in love.

I can agree with that Susanne.  We need to look upon the world as Jesus did, when he looked out and saw that the fields are white, and ready for harvest.  That people need a measure of compassion.

The “Baptist Convention” just left my house.  That is to say, the in-laws.

Hubby and I both grew up in the Baptist church.  His was unabashedly hard-core, though.  Mine, a little more covert.

Not sure which is worse.

We now attend a “not your typical Baptist church”.  It was a church plant from an SBC church.  I think it was the Generation X-ers and Y-ers, looking for more authenticity than they were finding in their parent’s church.

Well.  You can take the Baptist out of a church, but you can’t always take the Baptist out of the Baptist....

Basically, it amounts to little more than legalism.... which is not what Christ stood for.

And regardless of whom we choose to follow (denomination, leadership, etc.) - our faith - who Christ is to US - is all that matters in the end.

Great post.  Enough to pull me out of “lurkdom.”

Most of the time, people are offended by churches because they know they are guilty of something and need Christ.

I strongly disagree with this statement. While I think it is very true that the Gospel is offensive, and there’s nothing much we can do about that (people don’t like being told they should admit they’re sinners), I don’t think that means we should turn a blind eye to the way that we, the Church, are unnecessarily adding to the offense.

There are people among our ranks (whether it be specific denominations/traditions such as Southern Baptists or Lutherans or Charismatics or whoever, or just people acting as Christians without others being aware of any denominational tag) who have added to the Gospel and insinuated that God will never save someone who does such-and-such, or that certain kinds of people are not welcome in our churches. This is offensive to people AND it is offensive to God. And unfortunately, reasonable people like you and I who don’t add these extra stringent rules on top of the Gospel still end up doing damage control in the hopes that we can keep the Church’s reputation out of the crapper.

That said, I do think people jump to ridiculous conclusions due to stereotypes at times - like assuming all Southern Baptists are racist snake-handling maniacs who wish the Confederacy had won the war, or all Catholic priests are child molesters, etc. Extrapolating that all Christians are like one example they’ve seen on TV is just stupidity. But when they see repeating patterns because the idiots are the ones making headlines and the rest of us who are trying to do genuine good are just off in our quiet little corners, I tend to not blame them for wanting no part of this Jesus business. I sure wouldn’t if I hadn’t grown up in the church and I didn’t know better.

So, to sum up, people are going to naturally be offended by some of the hard truths found in the Bible. But I think we’re still to blame if we can’t balance our presentation of those truths with the equally important truth that God loves these people LIKE CRAZY, and speak that truth in profound ways that show we’re not just blowing smoke.

I don’t typically care to get involved in dialogues criticizing or defending Christians and their beliefs, because I think it is truly divisive and not encouraging to anyone- Christian or non.

However, I thought I may as well jump into the fray since we recently began attending a Baptist church ourselves. Despite our preconceived prejudices, so far, so good.

Everyone seems to love Jesus, try their best to encourage and help one another, they offer to pray for us in times of trouble and celebrate with us in happy times.  I haven’t found anyone who is perfect, nor have I loved every sermon. We haven’t joined, because I’m not sure we are ready to commit to “being Baptist”, but one thing my 11 year old said to me makes me think maybe we should.

Prior to this church, we attended a rapidly growing non-denominational church with a cafe, a fabulous band, an incredible children’s program and a casual, contemporary environment. Donuts and coffee flowed throughout the service, and Biker Sunday is a local event. Multiple venues were offered, and to todays world, this is the ideal church ~ “seeker friendly”, to borrow a cliche.

Yet after attending the Baptist church for a few months my daughter told me that she loved this church, because they care about other people. “At our old church,” she said, “they never talked about helping others or doing missions work. I love our new church because they are more worried about other people than themselves.”

You know what? She is right. And for me, that is pretty much what I am looking for in a church. People who care more for sharing God’s amazing Word with others than with their own desires. No matter what they call themselves, I call that good.

I attend a SBC and my husband is an associate pastor. We are reformed *gasp* and honestly, have recently (and more increasingly) become annoyed with our state convention, which I will not mention. Their methods and ideas are unbiblical for the most part. The message doesn’t change nor does the method.
It’s sad to say but there is only 1 SBC within 60 miles of me that I would attend and raise my children in. And I live right smack in the Bible belt with a SB church on every corner.
Now I am not speaking of everywhere, of course. I can only speak of those SB churches in my area. The trust that is put in traditionalism & reciting a prayer without regards to a changed life of holiness is scary. The fact that the gospel has been so watered down (I recall seeing a sign, “So easy a caveman could do it” ARGH!) and is made so shallow is sickening. “Come to Jesus to be a better husband...” (BTW, this was the invitation that was given by an evangelist I once heard) No! You come to Jesus because you are a wretched, wicked sinner and because a Holy God has been merciful enough to call you to His own. God does the work of salvation.. the entire work. He does not need our ‘help’. Pastor’s are called to preach the gospel. Lay people are called to ‘go and tell’ the gospel. Let God do His finishing work of salvation. Let’s work on being obedient to the Father and not seeing how many people we can get to raise their hand and repeat a prayer, just so we can brag about it at the next convention meeting. I fear we (and I say we as in SBC) are being used by the devil to give false assurances. I think that Adrian Rogers did a great thing in getting us back to the inheriency of God’s Word in the SBC but I think it’s time that we get back to the sovereignty of God’s Word as well.

Just recently there was an article in our counties SB association publication about accepting change in order to grow/etc. And in that very article a ‘wise man’ was quoted, although his name was not given. That man that was quoted was Charles Darwin.. an athiest (whom the Bible calls a fool, in Proverbs, which is a far cry from ‘wise’! What a disgrace and it just shows to what lengths they will go to get their point across. 

Anyway.. I’m sure that most of what I’ve said has not been clear mainly because I have a toddler at my side wanting to go outside.
Oh and by the way, we had fried chicken at church last night.

Kelly, you could have just described my Baptist church. 

I have to echo what someone… oh, 87 or so comments ago… said, “there is no typical Baptist church.” I work in the church resource business, and the variety, even within the SBC, is amazing. 

So when a Baptist church defines itself as “not a typical Baptist church,” they’re 110% exactly right.

I love how Shaun threw this bomb out,then went out in the nature!

Darwin was a Christian who later reverted to Agonosticism. He was never an Atheist. Please get your facts straight before posting this sort of stuff.

I apologize for the incorrect term. Either way he was not a very wise man, according to God’s standards.

Why the apology?  Atheist or agnostic, a lack of faith is still unbelief in Christ’s eyes.

Agnosticism and Atheism may have the same end result because both entail a lack of belief in Jesus Christ being the Son of God, certainly. I never meant to argue that. I just wanted to be sure we were painting the scenario fairly instead of setting up a straw man scenario that could be easily knocked down. There are lots of people who are agnostic who would likely not appreciate being called atheists, because atheists say, “I believe there is no God” with the same amount of fervor with which Christians proclaim that there is a God, while agnostics just say, “I don’t know either way.”

But the point that Darwin was once a Christian is what was really of interest to me. It makes me wonder if his decision to renounce the faith had anything to do with the church’s adverse reactions to his theories.

In any event, I don’t think the fact that a church quoted Charles Darwin (which is the only reason the dude came up in the conversation to begin with) automatically makes them a water-down-the-truth kind of church. I need to know what was said and in what context it was quoted. Not everything Darwin said and did was wrong, you know.

It wasn’t until I moved to GA that I ever stepped foot inside a Baptist Church.  I must say, it is interesting.  I love that the sermons actually INVOLVE a Bible.  That’s reassuring.

I am struggling with the whole baptism by immersion thing.  If I want to join, this is what I have to do - even though *techinically* I’ve been baptized twice before.  Just not dunked.

The best communion I ever took was in college:

Grape juice and Hawaiian bread.

"They said…
I am struggling with the whole baptism by immersion thing. If I want to
join, this is what I have to do - even though *techinically* I’ve been
baptized twice before. Just not dunked.

I am often amazed at what each of our struggles seems to be with what Jesus has asked of us.
The idea of Baptizing to join a “church” is as foreign to Jesus teachings and the Apostles actions carried out in Acts. 
My first question would be why you’ve been baptized twice alreayd?  Regarding immersion, it is what has always been considered as being baptized, hence the scripture of being “buried with him in baptism” Romans 6: 1-6 I believe shows this example nicely. And as an aside, the idea of baptizing by sprinkling, etc;...goes all the way back to the Catholic church and a little practice referred to as “bedside baptisms” which had to do with people who were seriously ill.
You desiring to be baptized, whether the past or future should stem from one basic need.  To love God enough to obey Him, and in doing so you claim His promises.
If a church or even a denomination is asking you to be baptized for their sake, then you simply have something before you that was never preached in the New Testament.

Iva,

I’m confused, are you saying this church only rebaptizes? I was “baptized” as an infant (unscripturally) in the Presbyterian church I grew up in.  when I went to college and finally dug into the doctrine I discovered it was wrong (i.e. no basis scripturally for baptizing of infants.) and submitted to Immersion, but I most certainly would not do it a third time.

However, my main concern is when the baptism occurs, not the amount of water used.  What if someone is in the desert?  Baptism, by water should merely be a sign of the inward baptism that should already have taken place when you accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, at the very moment in which the Holy Spirit comes to dwell inside you, thus Baptism is a symbol of the inward change that has already occurred, and for a new believer, it is also a declaration of faith in essence. 

Chemically, water is water, it doesn’t matter if its a few drops, a canteens full or enough that you could literally drown in.  Now if the opportunity and choice was there, I’d still choose immersion because it also paints a symbolic picture of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, however, I think arguing over water, the amount there of, is pointless.  We know that John’s Disciples were baptized by immersion, we also know that some had to be ‘rebaptized’ and IIRC that was because for a jew, they needed to submit to the full Godhead.  We don’t have that problem today, most true Christians believe in the trinity.

No the main issue with baptism should be whether or not you were baptized after you were saved.  If you were then I see no reason why they need to do it again.  We are blessed in this country in that in most regions water is not a scarce resource, but in other countries, third world ones, like in africa, or perhaps in central or south america, I can see a reason why a preacher might choose to not fully immerse someone if water was clearly scarce.

Steve’s summation is correct though, being rebaptized just because they want it for membership is ludicrous and unbiblical in effect.

I attempted to go back and find the article that Darwin was quoted in. I couldn’t find it. This is a publication that comes out bi-weekly and it isn’t by a church it is by an association (it is a e-newsletter). And by association I mean, _____ Baptist Association, which is part of the SBC. But I do have a copy of the email that my husband sent to the writer of this publication. I have ommitted a few words…
_____, I read your latest article in the ______ today and I have to say that I am concerned with something you said. In the last paragraph you quote a “wise man” who said “It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change”. Do you know that Charles Darwin was that “wise man”? Do you know that in writing the “Origin of Man” where the “Theory of Evolution” came from, he calls God a liar in the creation of everything. Do you know that Charles Darwin referred to the natives of Africa and Australia as “savages”; he called them “less than human”, “ones with no soul”? I’m sure Adolf Hitler said some nice things to say about his mom, but quoting him on a Mother’s Day card would be a bad idea. Same thing in quoting an agnostic in a Christian publication. I am not in anyway attacking your purpose for writing what you wrote, I am simply pointing out what I believe to be damaging to Kingdom work.  We are to hold one another accountable and that is what I want to do. Thank you again for allowing me to speak on such short notice last night.  I don’t take that for granted and I mean when I say when I say I am not attacking you in anyway.  I fearfully respect you and your position as a pastor and director of mission, because God has a calling on your life and He will protect His men.

For the Glory of God,

Hubby’s name

**And as far as the context, this publication was talking about ‘change’ in the church/association.. changing methods (which I mentioned in my first response), changing ideas at how the association is ran, in order to get more involved. To some it may not be a big deal but why can’t we just go to Scripture to ‘make our point’ instead of quoting an agnostic. I guess my point in sharing this whole story is the fact that it seems that so many SBC’s seem to be attemtping to do whatever, however to grow a crowd (and in the end forsaking Scripture to accomplish this). It’s time to get back to the sovereignty of God’s Word and His original methods of getting it out: preach His Word; the whole council of His Word. And from what I have seen, locally in particular, that is not being done. I hope I’ve made some sense this time. This is a difficult subject to attempt to explain in blog comments!

THEY SAID: “No the main issue with baptism should be whether or not you were baptized
after you were saved.”

My studies into this have shown me a different conclusion regarding being saved and the Holy living in me.
There are no examples of where believing gained the early Christians the gift of the Holy Spirit within.
On the contrary, Peter mentions in Acts 5:32 that because of our “obedience” we received the Holy Spirit.  And Paul even addresses this in Acts 19:1-5 when those who believed in Jesus but had no idea of who the Holy Spirit was, were further instructed and re-baptized so that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
Just as God told Joshua to march around the walls of Jordan 7 times, shout, blow trumpets...and the result would be as God promised...we are told to be obedient because of our love for God. In this He promises to come and dwell in us if we obey. (John 14:21..??_)

But that is my study and one that I adhere to because if God has asked us, how can we not obey?

The American Baptist church that I attend often explains, when dedicating babies, why we don’t baptize them. It’s for the reasons discussed above - that it needs to be a conscious adult decision. However, we don’t discredit it if someone tells us they were baptized at birth. We just view it as a form of baby dedication that was exercised by another church - it’s really more to show the commitment of the parents, which isn’t a bad thing.

Except that babies probably don’t like being immersed in water all that much…

Loved this post, Shaun… and no, I am not the ‘typical baptist’ either.  HA.

Typical Baptist...and loving it…

I love the zuchinni arm. I know I spelled zuchini wrong-being careless right now.. anyways…
Until recently I played saxophone for 4 years at 1st baptist fort lauderdale and I must say, I have never seen such a good quality music program-with choir and orchestra combination and alot of excellence instilled in their music program. Shaun, I think that night that you performed was just a subdued response because not many people were there-just 50, and people were timid or tired from the week. I’m just guessing-could be wrong. I haven’t been there in 3 months.. maybe the marketing for the concert was bad. It seems that alot of concerts there are on Sundays, so Friday was something they weren’t used to. I just wanted to add this.. I’ve seen many Sundays with much audience participation, clapping, hands in the air etc--with very modern church music and also hymns. Also, have you seen the Christmas Pageant on video? It could turn out to be really lively at times.
I wouldn’t call it typical Baptist. If you attend on a Sunday you’ll see what I mean-the worship leader John Jones and orchestra leader Stephen Hand brings alot of passion into the music program. But honestly, Pastor Larry Thompson has a cheeesiness about him alot of times and only uses the word “great” as an adjective to describe everything. 1st Baptist you can quote me on this-because Larry Thompson needs to expand his use of synonyms-he has a great heart and is a good leader though. I really appreciate your good works, and the amount of people you keep bringing out of poverty is staggering. Also out of a 50 people attendance, bringing 14 people out of poverty is an excellent thing.