i guess the problem with things is that they’re open to twisting and false interpretation.

i’ll think of WWII for example. . i shudder to think of what life would be like now if nobody took up the cause to fight against tyranny and genocide. .

I know we’re back ‘in the day’ with this journey, but war is war, no matter when its fought and i think of WWII cuz my grandfather fought in it against the Nazis. . that’s my frame of reference for war.

I completely understand.  My father enlisted to fight two tours of duty in Vietnam.  My uncles did the same.  My great uncle served in the Pentagon under three presidents, was a four star general and bore the title President of Selective Service during Vietnam.  In other words he administered and oversaw the draft.  I could go on, but basically my family is full of honorable men who fought against oppression of various kinds in their times.  My frame of reference is also informed by real life history.

At the same time I have to, I believe, frame my theology on ALL THINGS based FIRST upon scripture, second upon church history and the legacy of teachings from Church fathers and do so in community with other followers of the teachings of scripture - people lie you but, more importantly, people in my church and life every day.

If I were in two bad marriages in which I was neglected by my wives and belittled constantly as well it wouldn’t be right for me to frame my theology on marriage and divorce based FIRST upon my experience in marriage.  If I did that I might decide it is impractical for Malachi to say “God hates divorce” or for Jesus to say “submit” and “serve” and seemingly push for marriages to stay intact with little exception.

God’s WORD is not discerned or taught with the goal of better fitting it to our circumstances or lifestyle.  I think, as hard as it is for me to actually do, that I should approach scripture asking how I should be changed to fit it - no matter how peculiar or costly or impractical that fitting process may be for me.

I’m not accusing you of NOT approaching scripture in that way.  I’m just telling my story, spurred on by yours.  I’m realizing more and more just how hard it is for me to be a biblical Christian instead of a culturally skewed religious person.  I have a new dedication to scripture’s authority over me no matter what.  And that’s part of where these “studies” of Just War, materialism, nationalism, capitalism, salvation, the early church etc have come from.

I would like to thank you Shaun for setting up this blog to discuss serious issues in the church and our country today. I am a former Southern Baptist (father’s side) and an evangelical Pentecostal (mother’s side). I loved the Lord for many years before I came into the Catholic Church and now I have an even deeper faith in Him. I was hoping to see (and I might have missed it) comments on earlier church fathers before Augustine like Polycarp of Smyrna, Ignatius of Antioch (coined the term catholic or universal), Tertullian (coined the term trinity), Justin Martyr, etc. Their writings are oustanding in studying early church history and what has carried over into Orthodoxy today.

I really believe that many (not all) evangelical christians are hung up on this idea that the Catholic Church has become this whore of babylon apostate church! If I truly believed that I would not be in the Catholic Church today. It is important to note that the Protestant Reformation did happen, and I believe for a reason. It was a wake up call for many in the Church to take a spiritual inventory and address serious issues and abuses. There will always be division in the church because of lack of authority or understanding of it. That is why we have Ecumenism. It doesn’t mean we have to compromise on our beliefs but rather it means we can come together as the body of Christ and fight alongside each other for social justice.

I associate myself in many ways with Augustine.  He was a great theologian and fought against a great heresy in the church by the name of Manichaeism (a gnostic sect which sought to bring salvation by knowledge). Sound familiar?  If we only have knowledge of Jesus Christ we are not going to get very far.

One thing that I have carried over into the Catholic faith is my love and devotion for Jesus Christ.  Without Him there is no salvation. Having a relationship with Him helps up stay plugged into his sactifying work in our lives.  That is why we have a “personal relationship” with Jesus as coined by many evangelical christians. And it is something that has been embraced by the Catholic Church at large although it didn’t seem that way when I was an outsider looking in.

If anyone wants to visit my blog about my views on the current war in Iraq and the problem with secularization in our society feel free to go to churchuniversal.blogspot.com and post your comments.It is a new blog so bare that in mind when you go.

By the way Shaun, thanks for performing at LifeWay.  I really enjoyed your story about growing up and your spiritual life now. I hope everything is going well with your ministry in Franklin.  God bless!

Thanks, t.m.

I haven’t talked about the earlier church fathers you brought up because they weren’t directly credited with developing Just War theory.  In fact, I think - but who am I - that Just War theory was a break with traditional church thought on war.  From what I’ve read, which isn’t all there is I’m sure, it seems this way.

I do think the Catholic church has mislead millions over the centuries - intentionally or not - into believing that the separation, the distance, between God and man can be bridged by doing good and not simply in believing/trusting in Christ who is the only good ever in existence in bodily form.  It is Christ alone who saves.  Meditating on the stations of the cross, for instance, will not remove depravity from the heart or make us perfect in God’s view or eliminate earthly consequences and fall out from wrongs we commit here.

Luther realized this when we read the story of Abraham and the words in Genesis 15 “Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Obedience comes from a genuine faith.  Obedience does not lead to a genuine faith.

Evangelicals like me have also mislead millions and continue to do so by convincing people that belief is knowing.  Belief is not knowing the facts of who Christ was and what He did and what’ sin it for us.  Belief in the old testament is communicated as “commit” - and means “to roll”.  All that separates us from God (sin) is rolled onto the arms of God: Christ.  Our faith in God, given to us by God, rescues us from separation from God.  So we are saved from ourselves and sin and separation but we are also saved FOR God.  Knowing this results in obedience.  A truly believing Christian lives a life whose general direction, whose dominant characteristic, is obedience to God and not disobedience.  Faith without works is not faith - it is dead, in the words of James.

So evangelicals have created churches full of knowers who don’t do and are therefore, according to the bible, not believers and surely not disciples of Jesus.

One church tends towards doing as a replacement or addition to faith.  The other tends towards knowing without doing as a replacement for faith.  If the Catholic Church is “apostate” then Baptist must surely be as well.

Thanks for the good thoughts.  Let’s come together to find the truth of what we are supposed to be and do and believe.  Then we can better make invisible God visible in whichever church we attend.

SG

i was thinking of the crusades in particular when i thought of ‘twisting’ and ‘false interpretation’. . truly.. .  bad scene.

which you cover in your next instalment. 

I am really, really desiring to be a biblical Christian overall. . I have been raised as a salvation army soldier. . but I realize that our ‘orders and regulations’, our doctrines, these are noble and are based on the biblical foundation - they are not a substitute for the Bible, nor are they treated as such.  Unfortunately Army people tend to get too busy. . and often their studies can be neglected. Its an inherent danger for us.  I know that it comes down to an essential, close to God, hearing his voice and reading his word kind of lifestyle that I must be living.

Thank you for sharing your family’s military service heritage. .that is so special.  I too admired my grandfather so much, he was part of the liberation of Holland. . he shook Eisenhower’s hand when he shipped out!  and he and his shipmates were given an inspirational talk by Winston Churchill himself as my grandfather made his way home, after being wounded.

I have always been more fascinated with war i think than the average woman my age. .  its because i have a face to put on it. . i face i knew and loved. .

as for building my own theology, of course scripture, but i am really not there yet with church history, Shaun.  I have been sheltered and have been schooled in completely different ways. . My organization (the S.A.) we don’t call ourselves a denomination, we never did have time to be studying much church history, i think because our founders fought so much to save drunkards and prostitutes and children enslaved in work houses. . they once brought a huge group of ‘scum’ into a church in England. . to prove that all have need of God’s salvation and that church was for all people—he and his people were not welcome. That was it for Booth. .  I suppose those early salvationists were more concerned with taking care of the widow and the orphan than they were in studying the history of an entity that excluded the neediest ones. They slaved in “Mile End Waste” in East London, they dove into gin palaces and whorehouses and they rescued countless people, they built safe factories and employed their converts, they removed the children from the work houses and put them in S.A. orphanages, they went where no respectable ‘church people’ would ever set foot. My heart just burns with fire when i read of my heritage. I sometimes wish that I could have lived then. .  like any great spirit-filled movement, as the original visionaries die, the fire becomes succeedingly more dim as each generation passes. .  but you know, there is a phoenix thing happening all over the S.A. world now. .  especially in the deadest part of it, the Western world. . Tentmakers and radicals who live with crack addicts and get fleas from sleeping in run down hotels, who hold their Army weddings in alleys and who minister to junkies and punks and runwaways and pray 24/7/365 in the War Room, who take prophecy into the streets, this is the emerging Army. . it looks different from the Emergent Church. . its been likened to the fist of the body of Christ. . but very needed i think.

So, yeah, that’s where my head is at with ‘church history’. . . I cannot just ignore it, bite the hand that ‘fed’ the Army. . cuz after all we did spring from Wesleyan and Methodist roots. . so we’re all in this together, right?  Thanx for helping me to develop my knowledge and understanding.

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Thanks Shaun for your insight. I know after reading all of this church history you and I probably will not see eye to eye on everything but we can learn from each other. Someone once said “When you stop learning, you start dying.” I truly believe that and I love to get different perspectives on topics like the one’s we are addressing.

I would like to make one point though. No one denomination can be held responsible for the ills of our society. I don’t believe that the Catholic Church has lead literally “millions” astray. I believe that people in the Church not the “Bride of Christ” have been misguided in their efforts for assimilation and discipleship. Do not get me wrong I’m not a works based individual but I do believe that one must put their faith into practice for it to mean anything. I don’t believe you can “get saved” and sit on your butt for the rest of your life and expect to enter the heavenly gates. You have to get out there and put your faith into practice in the name of Jesus Christ. If we call ourselves Christians we must clothe the poor, defend the defenseless, feed the hungry, and anything else that is required of us.  We need to be other-centered instead of self-centered.

When I was a Baptist, as well as a Pentecostal, I was always taught how will God bless me instead of asking the question how can I love others better which meens being a true follower of Christ and not just talking the talk. It is important to note this is how works alongside of grace and faith in Jesus combine together (neither one being greater than the other) to create a true disciple.  Works are not a bad word but it is in the lexicon of many evangelical christians. Believe it, Live it, Be it!

Thanks again Shaun for all you do and down with the War in Iraq.  Let us love as Christ loved us and not hate and want retribution!!
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