spiritual highs...that’s pretty much what results from retreats.  sad but true.  i’ve done that many times myself.  i used to go to retreats just for the fun (like many people)...any preaching/teaching was just an inconvenience on the side.

it’s not called a “retreat” for nothing.  when you pull away from the temptations of the world, it’s easy to follow Christ, especially when everyone around you is doing it too.  people tend to come out of those thinking that it’s easy to go BACK into the world and live for God....and then they get back to reality, and they realize (or maybe not) that it’s too hard, and they return to their old lives.

The sad reality is that while many of us had experiences like this at a summer camp, there are people that experience this on a weekly basis in their churches.

So I’m curious how all of this ties into meekness, since that’s what the chapter’s about.

That’s where I’m trying to lead the conversation.  Meekness replaces rededication.  It’s the idea that should stand in its place.

And JimmyC, there are intellectuals in the bible.  Paul and John come to mind.  Romans 7 and 8 will boil your mind.  And John 1 is almost NewAge sounding it’s so bizarre and heady.  But then there’s Mark.  Just straight ahead Mark.  Of course he copied someone else’s paper now didn’t he?  He’s the guy that didn’t pay attention very well.  So when it came time to write his gospel he just cheated.  Copied from some guy theologians call “Q.” Slacker.  I like him.

But sure, there’s no C.S. Lewis or G.K. Chesterton in the bunch.  We need more disciples with initials instead of first names.  Maybe that’s the deal.

SG

what is meek?

Shaun,

I’ve never heard anyone suggest Mark copied “Q”.  Most scholars think Mark was the first Gospel written, and that it is Peter’s story as told to Mark.  “Q” from the German quelle, meaning source, is supposedly a document of sayings drawn on by Luke and possibly Matthew to write their Gospels.  The general thought is that Mt and Lk used Mark in their Gospels and added to it with other sources like “Q”

We talked about meek tonight in class and interestingly the word we translate meek is an equestrian term that refers to a horse being broken to a bridle.

I’ve never heard of this “Q” guy.  Since ALL scripture is God-breathed, I’ll stick by the FACT that the Bible contains EXACTLY what GOD wanted it to, no more, no less, and completely accurate.  I realize it’s been translated many times and words in one language don’t always mean exactly the same thing in another language.  Also, I think Shaun’s sarcasm was showing above.  Something he reveals very well and it usually results in us learning a great deal.  Keep writing Shaun.  I can’t wait to get the book.  I’ll be sitting down with my Bible, a highlighter and a notebook; ready to ask a million questions and be taught some more!

Beth

still kinda in the dark on what meek is.  “equestrian term that refers to a horse being broken to a bridle.” is pretty good but its kinda hard to translate into applicable meaning.  i.e. God has broken my spirit so that he can ride me without me bucking him off.  Really cool definition but would you care to elaborate.?  does it really mean that webster definition of “easily imposed upon” i can see characteristics of meekness in my faith it that is the definition but it still doesnt quite do it for me.  i guess the hardest things about the beatitudes are figuring out what “the poor in spirit” or “meek” really mean.  i mean “peace makers”, and such are pretty gettable but…

Toby, you’re right.  I was typing quickly and thinking slowly.  Sorry for the confusion.

SG

” I’ll stick by the FACT that the Bible contains EXACTLY what GOD wanted it to “

I totally agree with you.

My Bible dictionary says “an attitude of humility toward God and gentleness toward people, springing from a recognition that God is in control… weakness is due to a negative sicrumstance, such as a lack of strength or lack of courage.  But meekness is due to a person’s concious choice.  It is strength and courage under control, coupled with kindness.”

Jesus says, “Blessed are the meek FOR THEY WILL INHERIT THE EARTH (LAND).”

One major key to understanding meekness came when I discovered what passage from the Old Testament Jesus was quoting here.  Find it and read about those who inherit the land/earth and you’ll have a picture of meekness and understand how we become it.  It results from only one thing and it’s not rededication.

SG

There seems to be a relationship between peace, righteousness, refraining from anger, meekness, and inheriting the land, prosperity and posterity, which is repeated all over psalm 37

Funny but my first thought when reading this chapter was all the images of prosperity gospel preachers I have, (which are not positive) But David writes over and over about inheriting the land and prospering???

ps this is a great dialogue...let’s keep it up!

Thought I would take a minute and comment here...WOW! Thanks so much Shaun… for taking the time to clarify these words...I’m not a Christian, but I am learning a great deal just by reading most of these comments… Sorry I haven’t been an active participant though I have been spending my times just reading your responses! Thanks so much for sharing what your faith is all about.

Peanut

OK, so Psalm 37 IS the piece of scripture Jesus is referring to.  Every one of the eight blessings called the beatitudes (found in Matthew 5:1-12) are tied to Old Testament scriptures like this blessing of the meek is.  Very helpful.

This passage in Psalm 37 is full of many adjectives and descriptors centering around one action.  The idea being that this one action creates a person that can be described by the rest of the chapter.  When you read Psalm 37:1-11 you notice that the words “fret” and “anger” come up a lot.  Fret in hebrew is from a word we get “char” from - meaning to burn.  Fret to us means worry but the original text used a word for anger.  So you end up with a passage having a lot to do with anger management.

Numerous times in the passage the meek are described as those who are not angry, no vengeful, not retaliating etc.  How is this possible?  How can a person in this world not be angry and seek revenge?  They must be meek.  The meek are the only ones capable of displaying such unusual character.

In the middle of the passage, in verse 5, it says the meek “commit” their “way” to the Lord.  This is the action at the center of meek character.  Hope I’m not boring anyone but here goes: The word “commit” in Hebrew (the original language of the old testament, means “to roll”.  It was used, for instance, of shepherds rolling a large rock off of a well opening so they could water their animals.  These stones had to be moved by many men working together.  This rolling isn’t the moving of something tiny and flickable.  This is a massive weight that’s being rolled.

The first two beatitudes, or wrungs on the ladder as I like to imagine them, are about the “poor in spirit” and those who “mourn.” We’re all poor in spirit.  The bible tells us that every human being ever made after Adam and Eve was busted inside.  Out hearts are imperfect.  More than that they are incapable of begin anything but imperfect.  And this imperfection goes deep, it makes us enemies of a perfect God, makes us unable to fully understand God and the bible, makes us hostile even towards the two.  We’re spiritually needy and inept.  We are “sinful.”

Now if we run from this and medicate it away with work, money, addiction, fun etc, we’ll stay busted.  No change.  no hope.  But if we stop and face this fact that our heart, our core, is evil and powerless, we’ll mourn it.  We’ll mourn the loss of our innocence and of the busted nature of the whole world.  We’re sorry.  David, the writer of Psalms, calls this being “contrite.” Some would say this is being penitent.  Whatever you call it, it’s knowing you have a problem, not liking the problem, and being ready - eager even - for a solution.

Then comes meekness.  The problem - the sin and sorrow in us - is rolled (entrusted to) God.  This is surrender.  Realizing we are messed up isn’t enough.  Trying harder this time to be better and less messed up is worthless.  If we think we can try harder and be better we’ve never really understood how poor in spirit we truly are.  Remember that poverty in spirit isn’t just realizing I’m a sinner but realizing too that we’re incapable.  The word used for “poor” here isn’t the word used to describe the working man in need.  NO.  The word used is very specific.  It means to cower or crawl.  It’s used of beggars who are so disabled for some reason that their ONLY way of surviving is to beg for help.  They have no skill.  No ability.  Nothing to offer.  That’s us.  All we can do is give up.  Beggars do that well.  Those who believe they can do better never give up.  They rededicate.  Again and again.

Why are there so many rededications going on at youth camps?  Honestly?  I think it’s possibly because those people at the altar never realized they were poor in spirit.  They thought their bank account was running pretty low.  There were some bills they knew they couldn’t pay but never realized they could pay NOTHING on their own.  jesus didn’t just come to take away sin, but also to take away weakness, fear, and the rest of our “way”.  That’s why we commit our WHOLE way to the Lord.  That’s salvation.  Not a prayer or a rededication week after week or summer after summer.  We come like weeping naked penniless beggars to the King and He takes over all of our affairs as well as pays our debts.

Make sense?  Any questions?

The phrase “deny yourself,take up your cross, and follow me” comes to mind.  Jesus surrounded himself with folks that for the most part were common people with common problems.  People probably not all that different than you and me.  I honestly think that Jesus did that knowing that for years they would be studied and grilled upon.  Can you imagine how complicated scripture would be if there were a biblical intellectual?  That is funny to even think about.  Now back to “rededication”.  The general principle is to put away yourself.  Rededication, being for most I’ll take it, as realizing that the putting away of self needs to take place.  I’ll be honest with you, I don’t get the whole “rededication” thing being something that is woven into our churches.  I honestly feel like that has an enabling effect on some.  Falling anway and coming back.... falling away and coming back.  Seems like so many people, myself included, have adopted a less than permanent mentality towards alot of things in their lives, being a Christian and following Christ as one.  Taking a stand to “dedicate” ones life would probably have a more profound effect.  Hope this provides some thought provoking conversation.

The word “rededication” is no where in the bible - nor is the general principle of it.  What is there instead?

Nice to see you back.  It sounds as though your week away has done you some good and your thought-provoking wit is in good form.  I too am a “graduate” of many a church summer camp.  As a youth, I guess I responded pretty much the same way, or even with the “ambivelance” of having heard it all before.  As an adult, some of the best looks inward have occured at weekend getaways.  One in particular with Beth Moore that was chock full of practical Bible help as well as a healthy dose of side-splitting laughter, was especially good.  I still have the study notes from that weekend and refer to them often. 

Hope all went well with you this week.  It’s great to have you back!

Beth

pointed words.. makes you stop and think about how lightly we take the things of God. even when we’re out of the “youth group” days… it can become a game. though i never went to camp, I relate to the point.

thank you for sharing,

Randy

Hey,
Just wanted to say that I can totally relate to your church camp stories. Yes, the same thing did go on year after year, but I thank God for the foundation he laid in my heart so many years ago. In the crazy days of being a teenager those sermons (even the same ones yr. after yr.) needed to be heard to keep this girl on track. Your right, we all made the promises that we were convinced we would keep. I can’t help but to think good thoughts when I think of some of those summers. You see, at one of those camps in 1988 is where I met God and of course my life has been different ever since, and at another is where I listened to a good friend of mine and saw how on fire for God he was. That man became my husband a few years later and I am so thankful for his Christian leadership in our family today. I guess I will confess that this is your old summer camp friend and high school art class buddy Ashley. Your sister told me about your BLOG (SHLOG) a few weeks ago and I have to say that I am so impressed by the book writing and all of the things you are doing with your talents. Good Luck on the book. By the way, I seem to remember a younger kid at camp playing his saxophone a time or two.

i guess it does really happen at almost every retreat. this is why i choose not to go to them unless a really cool artist is going to be there, because you are just building a lie that next time you come back you will feel guilty for it. i see it in all of my christian friends who go to them, they come back all pumped on how they are gonna better thier lives but after a week or so its all forgotten. its like paying 60 bucks for building lie.

There’s nothing truly spiritual, or truly Christian, about these camp experiences. They turned us inward rather than focused us on Christ. Some of us may have nostalgic memories of these experiences, but ultimately they have turned people away from Christ by presenting a man-centered, self-focused “make a committment” theology rather than a Christ-focused one that exalts Him for His continued committment to us. I have friends who have cried and committed at these camps, but have never had their hearts changed by the Holy Spirit, because the true Gospel was not being preached.

Camp...a lot of fluff, or so it seems.  Youth leaders want to pack a bunch of great things into one week to bring in every kind of person out there, then add spiritual lessons to convict them and help them better see Jesus.  But it’s not one week a year (in the middle of summer vacation at that!) that’s going to be the turning point in one’s spiritual life; it’s the week-to-week and day-to-day accountability and instruction coming from the Church in the midst of school and priorities.
I’ve been to camp three times in my life (okay, I’m only 16...) and I can see from year-to-year that what changes took place in my life depended on what my attitude was BEFORE I went.  If I wanted to open my heart for God to use the teachers to change me, than that’s what would happen; if I was only viewing it as a get-away to have “fun” and not a week of separating myself from the world to focus on God, than I’m not going to do anything other than genuinely enjoy myself.  Not that having fun ruins the whole experience with God, but it’s one’s mindset that determines the change they allow God to make.

What should that mindset be exactly?  That’s what the this chapter winds up being about.  This story is only an intro.

SG

Beth,
I think a weekend with Beth Moore is totally different than a “retreat”.  For one thing, she’s not afraid to adddress things that simply don’t get addressed in most churches.  Right now, the church NEEDS that sort of place.  I went to a Beth Moore conference geared towards women 18-25 this past summer.  (Priscilla Shirer and Watermark were also there) it was such a refreshing time because it was so honest.  There was a question and answer time that addressed a lot of things I wish the church or my own Christian college had had the courage or even knowledge to address a few years ago.  It would have helped through one of the darkest times in my life.  But I’m thankful that people are talking more about it now.  I truly hope that being open about the “shameful” things that Christian women deal with will help the future of the church.
About retreats/summer camp my favorite Bible and Theology professor always used to say that God doesn’t work because of retreats but rather in spite of them.

ahh. memories. 

do you know that you know that you know that you know that you know,,,… that if you died tonight, .... you’d go to heaven.  i thought-well crap, i know, but i dont think that i know that i know”....and so forth.

then i remember kind of being hornswaggled into going down front.  they would ask these questions like “with every head bowed and every eye closed, i want you to raise your hand if you are sorry for being so crappy” so i would raise my hand and then of course he would demand that everyone go down front that raised there hand.  and then there is praying “the prayer” for real for the 4th time that week making sure i concentrated and believed every word has hard as i could. 

it seems that in some camps (havent been to a camp in an age or two,) but to get the best invitation results the speakers kick in their “sinners in the hand of an angry God” mentality.  fear has always produced the best numbers in invitations and the funds for the biggest and prettiest churches.

very cool.  felt like i was there again, look forward to the rest. 

Seth

wow i want to hear more shaun.........im tuned into what you are saying.....we do that whole “spiritual fix” thing so often and then we just step back into whatever it is that traps us.........i do anyway

I remember one youth camp where we were asked to bring albums to be burned in a big bonfire.  (Am I dating myself here?) I felt pressured into bringing some albums, even though my Christian parents thought album-burning was ridiculous.  I’d say at least 95% of us who brought albums that night and swore we’d never listen to that “Satanic music” again went back on our promises in less than a month.  One album I remember?  Donna Summer Live.  Yeah, she was pure evil.....

Wow Shaun, you really nailed down what happens at camps and other major functions with a lot of Christians. To tell you the truth I was one of the best of them. The whole get emotional make myself cry with my head tucked practically under my abs to appear as if there were some deep struggle going on in me. I loved Spiritual and religious attention. You go to camp or a weekend retreat and you’re entirely closed off from everything that is real life and you think hey I can change my heart is ready but really it’s your brain doing the talking. Once you get back out there you may do a good job for 2 weeks or a month if you’ve really over come yourself. But then you forget about changing and you go back to doing what works. I wonder what the world thinks of our extreme changes? One week we’re feeling the Spirit of God and then 2 weeks later we’re laughing at a dirty joke told by one of our other Christian friends who also when to that same camp or religious function. Change is hard work you, just don’t get the tingglies and go “OHH I’M SO READY TO CHANGE” No, it doesn’t work that way you’ve gotta be ready to commit and understand that it’s gonna be hard. And I’ve gone off on a tangent so I’m gonna quit.

I saw a lot of that camp experience stuff when I was growing up too.  I still see a lot of it.  But I think that we downplay “religious” expereinces or “mountaintops”.  You don’t live on the mountaintop.  But you always remember the day you made it there and lookd out over your life and saw things from a clear perspective.  They’re like benchmarks.  And I fear that many of us say “that was at camp, though.  Now I’m in real life” and forget that God speaks in EVERY situation of life, including times at camp.  Not that we want to get all emotional and let the feelings of the moment trick us.  But I grew into who I am today because of occasional “highs” on retreats, and because of frequent “lows” when I returned to school.  I think that they’re both part of the Christian life, and they both have elements that can teach us great things.

I think that one’s mindset needs to be that of “okay, God, I’m Yours; do with me what You want to” and not that of a rebellious nature, challenging God to make you change.  It is God who does the changing of one’s heart, but that heart has to be willing for God to work.

Shaun, you just explained salvation in a way that many have eben unable to articulate.  Thanks so much.
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