Good thoughts Shaun. I agree with a lot of what you are saying. I think a lot of times the tithe winds up being counted on and used to pay the bills of the church and fund the programs the church is running. While that is all well and good, many times there is none left over for the heping out that you are referring to. And that is what I believe the church needs to be more in the business of.

Shaun,

There are so few like you in America.  Maybe there are more, but I’m not finding them.  I’m (ironically) teaching an adult class through the book of Acts.  The consensus is that the church in Jerusalem was great back then, but they knew nothing of the busy and demanding lives that we have today.

Like they didn’t give up everything to obey their Lord.

I love my church.  I’ve been there for 26 years (my whole life).  I went to college and came back to be a teacher there.  I hope against hope that even two or three people will BELIEVE… that a church like you dream CAN happen… that we CAN obey, just like Jesus told us to.

I agree with your tithe comments.  But they’re superficial.  The real issue is that we’re still committed to Self, not to God, and certainly not to others.  We can go to church and give our 10% and that’s enough, because we look like good little Christians.  We talk about evangelical outreaches and bringing “unchurched” through our doors.  And sometimes we do that—but because we figure once they’re in the door, they become the pastor’s responsibility.  He’s the one who can give a great conversion message and bring them to tears, right?

Jesus told us to make disciples… surrender every last bit of our life.  Invest it in others.  Train up our children in righteousness.  “Teach them to obey everything I have commanded you"… pretty sure that’s how he put it.  But when we don’t believe obedience is possible or necessary, we abandon it.  When we believe Jesus died only to buy us tickets to heaven, we don’t care about letting him have our life on earth, too.  But didn’t he also promise to cleanse us from all sin (1 Jn 1:9)?  Didn’t he promise to make his church pure and blameless (Jude 24)?  Didn’t he tell us to confess to one another (Gal 6), to never forsake the gathering together with other believers (Heb 10)?

I ramble on, but only because you’ve hit a passion.  More than a passion.  I’ve given my life and my dreams up.  I turned them in for a new dream—a dream to see Jesus’ church become REALITY.  I’ve given all my time to teaching the Word and supporting the people at my church.  I’ve got a homeless girl living in our spare bedroom (yes, my wife knows!).

The problem is that we just don’t believe.  We don’t believe in Jesus, or the Church, or the Word, or any of it.  If we did, we’d find the burden of giving up our lives a very small price for the beauty of Jesus’ dream.

Keep dreaming, Shaun.  Jesus promised that his church would prevail and that all who DO believe will be given eternal life.

What an inspiring post!  I mean really, the more people that feel this way, the more change will come.  And leading by example is a powerful way to make the dream come true.

Oh, and to answer your actual question… You simply do what you did.  If you are part of the Body, others will follow.  It’s just lonely sometimes, until others start to believe

The “church” may not be “in the business” of doing Jesus’ work.  But the Church will always make it its business.  Be the Church!

I’m dreaming of see those things become instinctive and natural again too. I agree with jwise on this one, while much of the ‘church’ is silent, it’s our job to start living it out, one life at a time. Mother Teressa once said ‘Small things done with great love will change the world.’ Well, small things done with great love will change the church too. It’s a one-life-at-a-time sorta thing I guess!

I read recently that the tithe was supposed not to be used to run the church, but was to be redistributed among the poor. Now, i’m not 100% sure thats Biblical, i need to check it out for myself… but it makes sense to me. Giving is on top of our tithe I reckon.

Thanks for the challenging post Shaun… I loved that idea that your daughter is knitting scarves for the poor… I might learn to knit now too! Thanks!

The “church” it seems no matter how perfect has become a business.  Jesus called the church to be an organism a living breathing function of the Kingdom of God hear on the earth.  You my friend go to a “church” as do I with lots of members doing the business of God.  However in your actions and dreams you found and were the church, the people of God doing the Kingdom of God.  Hmmm In Earth as it is in Heaven

Dream on brother dream on

The real issue is that we’re still committed to Self, not to God, and certainly not to others.

You know, I thought this once too.  Until it happened in MY church.  I know my pastor.  I count him as a friend.  I know he and so many others in my church are committed to God and to others in the way they know how to be - in a greater way than the churches they grew up in, in fact...so some have explained to me.

I don’t question anyone’s commitments anymore.  I’m very aware instead that all of us, me included, have not been taught what form those commitments can and should take in our day to day lives.  Once a dream in dreamt out loud I’ve seen people motivated from within to “do likewise.”

Brant and Brian and my mother model for me a better way to live my commitment to God and others.  And I’m inspired to follow.

Maybe some folks aren’t so committed.  But that’s not my problem.  My problem is being very committed but clueless about what to be and do about it.

I see very similar things with our leadership.  They’ve made incredible sacrifices to reach people.  The thing that always seems to trip them up, though, is that no matter what the need, they come back with “But that’s not how we’ve done it.” -or- “But the congregation will never go for this.”

And I still wonder if the core isn’t that we believe in a gospel of forgiveness, but NOT in a Gospel that makes us new creatures, sets us free from sin and death, AND grants forgiveness.

Unfortunately, well-meaning people aren’t exactly what Christ called us to become.

Maybe, though, we’re talking against two different churches and two different root problems.  At least our goal is the same.

I think the very root of this issue is simple. We go to church, we say “ Hey brother, how are you” Like we really care, we say things like “love ya man” to one another. But in my opinion to the level on which we honestly do those things is far short of the true definition of said things. You might say “I know” such and such a person on staff or in the congregation, but let’s face a real reality, do you really know them.

When was the last time you got coffee together, shared a meal at each other’s home, really spent quality time getting to know others in your church body?

I believe if we did actually take the time to become close to one another as Christians, then helping each other would only come natural, because that’s what families do, they help each other. Then calling each other “brother” (or sister, don’t want to offend the ladies) or saying “love ya man” may actually mean something other than..."My mask is better than yours”.

So, Shawn, in the example I gave...the person needing help wasn’t a member of my church.  They didn’t know anyone in my church but me.  Does your logic still follow - that the problem would go away if everyone in my church hung out with each other more?

just stirring.

Shaun,

Wasn’t that one of the problems with Israel?  They became an exclusive country club instead of a light and blessing to the Nations.  Most people don’t agree with me, but I think we need to give to anyone who asks of us (seems like a wise man said that once), whether they’re a member of our family, our church, or some God-hating murderer.  A need is a need is a need, and the Church is here to be a light and salt and meet those needs.

Yes, we’ll be taken advantage of.  But good grief, wasn’t Jesus taken advantage of?  By billions and billions and billions!  But he endured the cross for the joy set before him.

Wasn’t that one of the problems with Israel?  They became an exclusive country club instead of a light and blessing to the Nations.

I don’t see it that way.  The problem with Israel is spelled out in Ezekiel 36: misrepresenting God in two ways: erecting false gods and warring without his approval.

Yes, we’ll be taken advantage of.

When I taught through Acts I realized imitating the early church is a great ideal but almost impossible in my culture.  Once reason being that we are not persecuted - there is no penalty for being a Christian, no expectation or punishment.  This was not the case in Acts 2.  Joining the early church was full of perks like having food and shelter etc.  But that was counterbalanced with the price of joining the group: persecution.  This price kept out moochers.

In Thessalonica, where persecution was more scarce and less severe when it occurred, they had problems with mooching.  So Paul said in Thessalonians 3:10 not to feed the person who refuses to work, and we assume is able bodied.

Sometimes loving a person means not meeting their immediate need but doing what nurtures them to maturity - and sometimes allowing someone to fall is the loving thing to do.

A kid at church asked us once for $400 to pay off traffic tickets.  If we didn’t give him the money he’d go to jail.  I asked him if we could call his father together and talk this over.  I suspected this unemployed 26 year old who’d dropped out of school and was living at home was a bit of a slacker and that paying off his debt would hurt more than help.  Turns out I was right.  He wouldn’t go for a phone call with dad.  He knew dad knew him better than gullible me.

My point is that you’re right, we will be taken advantage of since we are part of a Church in the West that is more perk than persecution, and we should give anyway, but also be discerning in doing what’s best for the person in need - and sometimes that means not giving them what they want right now.

Agree?

Yes, absolutely.  I guess by “need” I didn’t go into enough depth.  Yes, sometimes “need” isn’t just giving everyone what they ask for.  If a person comes to the church looking for money, perhaps the best solution is to get them into a Dave Ramsey class or something and teach them how to manage money so they get out of debt forever—not just for the week.

I think that’s what you’re getting at…

I need to chew on the persecution thing for a while.. it’s a great and valid point.  Often I wish Christianity DID come with a price - you could lose your life THIS WEEK if you cling to the faith.

I think we’ve gone on a tangent… but we seem to float around commitment.  In a world where coming to church could be the last thing you do (well, besides getting murdered in a violent fashion), you KNOW your brothers and sisters are committed.  But today… how DO we know wheat from tares?  Jesus said not to separate them.. but he also said to have NO leaven in the dough lest it ruin the whole batch.

Yes...yes…

as a “professional Christian”, I deal with this all the time, in fact I just got back from a trip to the grocery store to pick up $20 gift cards for the people who come in off the street…

To me(TO ME) it boils down to really caring, we can throw people a sack of groceries/medical bills/ rent/ utilities/ Christmas presents all we want to, and while this is part of the answer, it is not THE answer… really caring about others is very hard, very un-American, very un-logical, very un-self-preservationist...very Christ-like...it looks hard and it is even harder to do. when you start to care, you get past physical needs and then you get to the good stuff. (This concept is not just for people without insurance/food...some guy said these people were blessed)

I am supposed to get married in Sept!!! My goal is to love my wife more than I love me (which after 28 yrs of singleness is a lot (please send business socks(lots(for at least a couple years))) I pray she wants the same...my goal is to love God more than my self, like He did for us...my goal is to love others more than I love myself.

Edwards or Mcaine, ain’t gonna fix nuttin...till we start caring...put that on your car (heart)

words are cheap (speaking to myself)

So, if that’s the issue, how, in your experience, does a person become caring?  Or can we?

We become disciples of other caring people.  That’s what Jesus did, and then told us to do.  Immediately I think of one’s children (I don’t have any yet).  Teach them to obey by obeying yourself.  Get involved with the youth group and take them to serve those with needs.  Find some old widows who need their driveways shoveled and take some guys and go shovel it.  Teach the next generation how to manage money and then implore them to train their own kids.

We must DO the work, and disciple others to do what we do.  We seem to have lost that art sometime ago.

I can only say what Jesus did and what he told us to do.  But I have to think that part of his reasoning was that we must first overcome the selfishness, and then find the joy in caring—truly caring.  This happens as we are discipled.  Then we turn around and take the next group of people down the same road.  And they do the same thing.

It takes an enormous amount of time, though.  It’s a huge investment.  We’re going to get burned; we’re going to get burned out; we’re going to get discouraged; we’re going to get encouraged.  But in this, the Kingdom will begin to grow....

Shaun,

of course my logic still follows. If we the church (meaning all of us) take care of eachother than yes I believe it does. Alright here’s my logic. If you came to me with the exact same need, not really your need but a friend of yours need where in turn makes it your need, and asked me to help I would. Although I may not know the person being directly helped, I know a friend had a need. That is why I am a big fan of such organizations as Compassion International. By no means am I a socialist, but I believe if I have the resource(which is truely God’s anyway) to help someone in need I will. I believe this is part of the calling to love your neighbors.

I actually don’t go to a “church” but I have learned getting involved with others lives, the Christian community is a rather small one and yet very powerful. Unfortunantly it is a common belief to go and “play church” Sunday morning and your duty is done for the week. We were called to be disciples of Christ. He helped those who needed it, we are called to be the fathers to the fatherless, and champions of widows.
Take nuthumbria for example, did they not accept anyone into their community even none believers and offer them what they needed to live? It is by loving others, selfless acts, and sometimes even correction that God’s love shows through us to be a witness.

So I hope that answers your question Shaun. I guess I should have clarified that it does not have to be only people in the place where we worship...or only Christians for that matter.

I wish life came with a checklist…

The Holy Spirit, your gut. I singed up to be a big brother this year, not that I don’t work with the youth enough, but that is what I get paid to do, I was convicted on my off the clock life(if that really exists in ministry)...mainly lived it for me and mine. It is only 8hrs a month, a drop in the ocean, but I have had to say no to fun invites in order to hang out with my little brother. not to toot my horn, just a small example.

Funny thing about conviction, you start getting over one, then you see the other thousand standing in line.

-stir- Is it me or does God’s economy lean on the socialist side, replacing the Govt with God

It’s great to hear about your church.  I’ve wondered before what your community is like, there.

I fear that, on the time issue, many of our institutions are actually preventing us from having much.  I’ve been amazed in the past at the busy-ness that institutions (not just churches) generate in order to render services to members and run systems aimed at maintenance. 

And then commitment to God is, unfortunately, associated with commitment to that busy-ness.  Meanwhile, we pull out of the garage and past our neighbors on our way to worship practice—that kind of thing.

Hurriedly written,
Brant

I struggle a lot to give up my comforts in order to really care for and serve others sacrificially.  It’s an ongoing process, but I’m getting better at it I hope.

I’m struggling right now with something along these same lines.  I have a co-worker who is really “needy” in the emotional and the practical sense.  The hard part is trying to discern between when it’s good to actually provide the practical and when it becomes “enabling.” They’ve filed bankruptcy once already, have zero credit, have completely ruined her mother’s credit and and spent all of her retirement savings.  They have no desire to attend financial counciling or to change and they owe every friend they’ve ever had.  Her husband gets laid off every winter because he’s in construction.  He got a bonus right before the holidays and instead of paying on the mortgage that’s three months behind, he spent $400 on a cell phone because he thought it was cool.  This was after they spent almost $1000 on video game equipment for their three sons for Christmas.  When they asked their sons what they wanted for Christmas, all the boys replied that all they wanted was for their parents to both quit smoking!  They got the video games and a lecture about making their parents feel guilty about smoking instead.  She’s an insulin dependent diabetic who doesn’t take care of herself and complains about being sick all the time.

Long story to ask this; how do I truly help her and her family without becoming part of the problem by enabling them?  She’s not mentally stable so the “tough truth” would put her over the edge right now for sure.  How can I minister to them in a way that is going to help and make a difference?  How far can I go before I can say “Enough already?” How do I balance my responsibility to her as a Christian with my responsibility to our employer to maintain integrity at all times in everything I do?  Tough stuff and I don’t know where to start!

As for the broader topic, I definitely think the church should be doing more for everyone.  I’d like to see government programs greatly reduced and people turning to their local body of believers FIRST for their needs.  This will only happen when we aren’t concerned with self anymore.

Beth

Beth, the honest answer from me is I don’t know.  I can’t know since I don’t know her on the level you do.  Anything I’d give in the way of an answer would be pure theory.

I’ve not handled people like your friend well at times in my life.  Two Cents was written about a similar situation in fact.

I will pray for you and them though.  Keep me posted.

In general I try to maintain contact/friendship and be available in case I’m needed.  If your friend was a Christian I’d be unyieldingly insistent that they make better choices, while at the same time continuing to be kind and available - quite the paradox to pull off I admit.

No easy answer here.  Anybody else have one to share?

Beth, we’ll talk more in person when I head north to freeze my butt off and soft rock the Dakotas.  See you then.

Shaun,

Thanks for the prayers and the honesty.  My friend claims to be a Christian and while I obviously can’t know her heart, the “outward” evidence isn’t visible.  She was very pleased when I gave her a daily devotional Bible recently and is very open to Christian books, etc.  Her oldest son (13) is enrolled in Lutheran Confirmation classes at their church and she says they attend most Sundays and really like it.  It’s just really hard as I’m not “confrontational” (stop laughing, it’s true!) and I don’t want her to stop turning to me.  I want to be a positive influence on her.  It’s a tough call for sure.  I look forward to talking to you more about it in Feb.  No freezing allowed here.  I’ve got you covered!

Beth

Shaun, thanks for raising this issues. I’ve had a lot on my mind lately about need, and love, and the church, and government, and my role in all this, and this post was one more thing in a long line of things that I’ve seen and read and been around recently that has me thinking about these issues and what I oughta be doing with myself.

Beth (and anyone else who cares to read this),

I don’t think I would know what to do in your situation. I’m no going to give you any deep words of wisdom(because I don’t have any). tonight while I was studying in Colosians I was brought back to another verse in Galatians and kept reading when I came across this passage which I found relavent to this conversation. Maybe you could use it and see how God speaks to you through it.

I often times think I am a burden to my friends and will not share with them things going on, basically I do this because I don’t want a friend seeing me the way you are seeing this person. I know this is something I need to work on, especially considering the awesome loving friends I have.

“Galatians 6:1 Brothers and sisters, if a person is discovered in some sin, you who are spiritual restore such a person in a spirit of gentleness. Pay close attention to yourselves, so that you are not tempted too. 6:2 Carry one another’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. 6:3 For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 6:4 Let each one examine his own work. Then he can take pride in himself and not compare himself with someone else. 6:5 For each one will carry his own load.

6:6 Now the one who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with the one who teaches it. 6:7 Do not be deceived. God will not be made a fool. For a person will reap what he sows, 6:8 because the person who sows to his own flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life from the Spirit. 6:9 So we must not grow weary in doing good, for in due time we will reap, if we do not give up.6:10 So then, whenever we have an opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who belong to the family of faith.”

Taken from http://www.Bible.org, very cool website FYI.

peace, Shawn

I dream about things like that too.  Then I speak up about those dreams.
Then I get fired or have to quit because no one will listen.
Then I start all over again.

Great thread. I often wonder what would happen to the “church” if we really gave sacrificially as a community rather than asked for people to simply tithe. Isn’t that really what God is after anyway? I have been struggling for the past month with the fact that 30,000 children die everyday from completely preventable diseases. The number one killer of children is actually diarrhea.... That statistic is with me everyday, and its one of those things that I just can’t shake and probably shouldn’t. I can’t seem to lay my head down at night as a member of this body and be disconnected from the suffering of the world anymore - and just be okay with that. I think its like the man you helped Shaun, we are all connected; I am just starting to understand that when that man is sick - I am sick; when these children are dying we are all dying - its not someone elses problem, its all of our problem. So yes, your church does need to take care of him, and my church, and all of our churches. Well enough of this rant, I just really was blessed by your opening comments. Although in California we don’t have church membership. I think they might look at that like a cell phone contract! What ever happenned to covenant relationship?
Blessings.
Jreid

I think we’ve missed Beth’s first comment to a certain degree:

“I struggle a lot to give up my comforts in order to really care for and serve others sacrificially.”

I really struggle with this too, never more so than now. I question how ethical/honest/Christian it is of me to spend more money on me than I need to. Even something as simple as buying new clothes… Here’s how I picture it right now:
I have a gift voucher for a shop I love, for £15. I can’t buy anything there for £15, a sweater is like £50. How do I justify spending £50 on a jumper I ‘like’ when I can get one down the street for £15 that I maybe don’t like quite as much, but does the job equally well? Dorothy Day once said, “If you have two coats, one of them belongs to the poor.”

I know that maybe makes me look radical, or whatever else you think, but I really question this… if I buy the cheaper one I can give more away… and isn’t that the point of the new community, what church is supposed to be like? “They sold their possesions and gave so that no one was in need.”

Maybe I’m just a little crazy, but I really believe in this. Putting it into practice is SO SO much harder.

I think what Beth is saying is right on. What I think I am getting at, is another thing entirely...infact I did read her comments; and appreciate them - its more global. The Bible has over 2000 scriptures that mention the poor - right now in my life what they mean to me as an American in our western culture is very different that what they mean to someone who lives in the Sudan, Darfur, South Africa, Indonesia, and other areas like this. Because of our culture, our wealth, our proximity to health care, food, clean water, etc. We just have a different relationship to these scriptures than people who have to literally depend on the Lord for every drink of water and every bite of food...and for their lives. I think all of the church membership, the tithing, the church buildings, become less relevent when viewed in light of the Biblical mandate we all have for caring for the poor and meeting their every need. I guess I am personally convicted at how we (global) as a church have allowed 30,000 children to die per day from completely preventable causes - ???? This haunts me personally.....more since I’ve seen these things with my own eyes over the past several years on my trips to Africa. Shauns comments spurred me into thinking about yes, we have to meet the one right in front of us, but the battle is on so many fronts and its the Church of Jesus (the loving, caring, meeting the needs of the needy) Church that will only be able to get out ahead of these emmense needs.
Thanks.
J.

Emma,

I appreciate your comment.  I feel like I’m starting to think more and more that way in my life.  Not only in regards to things like giving to the poor, but also in caring for the environment, etc. 
I hope to become much more conscious of the way i spend money and the way I use both my time and energy.

Inspiring and convicting thoughs.  Thanks.

Have you seen the movie “Millions”? This post reminded me of a scene from this excellent, if theologically inaccurate, film. One evening the main character has a vision of St. Peter. He beings talking with Peter about Jesus and miracles.

Peter says something along the lines of Jesus’ miracles weren’t supernatural acts. He talks specifically about feeding the 5,000 and how the real miracle was that everybody shared the food they had, not that Jesus miraculously made more food.

Now, I don’t agree with that. However, I believe that is the way that “miracles” can happen today. Not necessarily through some magical, supernatural intervention, but through single acts of kindness, sharing, grace, forgiveness, love.

Shaun, I too long for the day when the Church becomes the bride it was intended to be. Until that day, let us press on with single acts, creating miracles and changing lives.

Why did you call “the church” first, instead of going to the doctors first?  That sounds like something I would’ve done…

I couldn’t think of doctors I knew were Christians and therefore should be more open to seeing these friends of mine who couldn’t pay.  So I called the church to see if they did.

After the two ministers were unable to help, I called an assistant who help brainstorm doctors with me.  Together we came up with a few people we thought were doctors.  Lucky guessers.

Good question.

Great discussion. I have been blessed. A lot of good thoughts.

My first thoughts were that your church did take care of the need.

I do want to use this comment this Sunday if I may.

“I don’t question anyone’s commitment anymore. I’m very aware instead that all of us, me included, have not been taught what form those commitments can and should take in our day to day lives.”

“Maybe some people aren’t so committed but that is not my problem. My problem is being very committed but clueless about what to be committed to and what to do about it.”

Thanks again all.