Our church teaches that communion or the Lord’s Supper is an ordinance. One open to anyone who is a professing Christian. In other words, they don’t have to be a member of OUR church, but THE church in order to partake. It is one of two ordinances; the other being baptism by immersion. Our pastor always admonishes us to examine our hearts to make sure we are not acting in an unworthy manner by taking communion. The bread and drink (juice) are symbols of Christ’s sacrificial gift for our salvation. They themselves are not transformed nor do they contain any special powers of any kind.
Transignification: the “elements” (aka: the bread and drink) take on at the consecration the real significance of the body and blood, which thus become sacramentally present.
Transubstantiation: change of the substance of bread and wine into that of the body and blood of Christ.
Memorialism: the belief that the bread and wine/juice (if you’re not a liberal) in the Eucharist are symbolic of the body and blood of Jesus.
Consubstantiation: during the sacrament the fundamental “substance” of the body and blood of Christ are present alongside the substance of the bread and wine, which remain present.
The Real Presence: the belief that, in the Eucharist, Jesus is really (and not merely symbolically, figuratively or by his power) present in what was previously just bread and wine.
Sacramental Union: anyone that eats and drinks the “elements"—the consecrated bread and wine—really eat and drink the physical body and physical blood of Christ as well.
Alright, be honest who eats and drinks Jesus?
In my church it’s a symbol of what Christ did for us and it is done in the rememberance of what was given so it’s also memorialized (is that a word?) at my church.
And according to the above definitions I am a...Memorialist.
I learned most of this stuff in Hermeneutics this semester.
the phrase we use before we eat or drink in communion is “eat in rememberence” or “drink in rememberence” like Jesus said. for my church we take communion ever first sunday of the month as rememberence of what Christ did on the cross. the crackers and grape juice are just that, crackers and grape juice. but they symbolize the sacrifice God gave us when Jesus died for our sins. and we are always reminded of the importance of searching our hearts and asking forgiveness for any sins we have committed before we eat or drink. our communion is open to any believer in Christ, but those who are not Christians are asked to just pass the trays along, and no one will judge them for it.
Can something be in remembrance but be something more as well.
Stupid example but…
Im a Texan and when we fought for our independence from Mexico we hollered “Remember the Alamo!”
We killed people in remembrance of the way our men were killed at the Alamo but our killing also accomplished something, it was done because we remembered but not just as a remembrance.
Can something be in remembrance but be something more as well.
Stupid example but…
Im a Texan and when we fought for our independence from Mexico we hollered “Remember the Alamo!”
We killed people in remembrance of the way our men were killed at the Alamo but our killing also accomplished something, it was done because we remembered but not just as a remembrance.
Is that possible?
Yes. Think of when you do the Lord’s Supper you are doing it in remembrance but while you’re doing it to remember you are also making the claim that you are “spiritually clean”. Check out 1st Corinthians 11:27-29
“Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.
But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.”
So it’s remembrance and a checking of the spiritual life. Agree? Disagree?
I definitely agree. I remember really struggling with this very thing during a service one Sunday and after careful examination, had to let the bread and cup pass by. I had some unrepented sin in my life that I had to deal with first. I was trying hard to “justify” it, but of course could not. That very scripture really cut me to the heart that day and made me realize just how wrong I was.
A remembrance and a “heart” check. The only ocassion Christ tells us to remember in scripture about His life.
In regards to the Lord’s Supper/Communion, I believe that the bread and wine are changed substantially into the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ, my Lord. Technically, it’s called Transubstantiation/Real Presence. I believe that when Christ celebrated the Last Supper with His disciples and proclaimed “This is My Body"/"This is My Blood,” He meant it, and this is why He didn’t call back the disciples who left Him in John 6 after they heard Him say that they must eat His Body and drink His Blood.
Interesting that you would choose that passage, CC, to support transubstantiation. This discourse is written to take place before the Lord’s Supper in John, but is clearly referring to a few of the favorite johannine themes of the bread and wine. Reading it as you did, however, would seem to make Communion a requirement for salvation. Am I misinterpreting what you’ve said?
No, you have not misinterpreted me, thecachinnator. But it makes logical sense as well, as I would say it is necessary for us as followers of Christ to participate in His saving Sacrifice (which is what Communion ultimately is: “This is my Body, which will be given up for you...” (cf. Luke 22:19).
Interesting post, I would be interested in what your take is on,
Genesis 9:4; Leviticus 7:26; 17:10-14; Acts 15:28-29.
Good passages to pull out, Bapster. For the most part, they all refer to food laws--in a certain sense-- but it was a particular law that the Jews saw as relating to all people since its first mention in Genesis was within the context of the covenant between God and Noah (which is why I think the early church kept the practice for a time, as is seen in Acts). However, chapter 17 of Leviticus starts to give a clue… blood was considered sacred to the ancient Israelites because it was thought to be the seat of life (even in animals)--this was why even the ordinary butchering of an animal for meat had a certain sacrificial character and so had to be done in the sanctuary. Leviticus 17:11 “...because it is the blood, as the seat of life, that makes atonement.”
We are saved from our transgressions (our sins) by the Blood of Christ shed from the Cross on Calvary--"by His wounds, we are healed” (Isaiah 53:5). It is precisely by the Blood of Christ crucified that we are healed and sactified. “...it is the blood, as the seat of life, that makes atonement” (Leviticus 17:11). So to participate in any other “blood offering” would be a participation in an ineffective sacrifice-- a meaningless one. It is only the Blood of Jesus that justifies us (cf. Romans 3:25) because it is a participation in His sacrifice, as St. Paul says, “The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ?...” (1 Corinthians 10:16).
CC, thanks for being here. I’m sure you realize, simply because of the average audience member of CHristian music, that you’re a bit out numbered on this board by non-Catholics who are not likely to share your views on this and other matters of our common faith. I’m glad you’re undeterred by this. Thank you for sharing your understanding of scripture with us. For many of us - definitely for me - this is a first opportunity to speak with a Catholic about this issue in particular, and a Catholic who knows his stuff too.
I’m still pondering what you’ve said so far, but wanted to encourage you to keep on. I’ve never heard some of what you’ve posted so far - good to know the basis for the belief in transubstantiation.
Let me think a little longer about it before asking any deeper questions.
Anyone here know about the Orthodox (as in Eastern Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Antiochal Orthodox etc) teaching on communion. I’ll post the liturgy they use for communion some time. Very interesting. Similar to CC’s take on this. And the Orthodox church, of course, claims apostolic succession, that they are the closest thing to the original apostle led churches of the first century we have today. They rely on the Didache (a book written, we think, by the Apostles and used as a teaching guide of sorts for the early church.) It predates the Gospels and the Epistles and it states…
9 Regarding the Eucharist. Give thanks as follows: First concerning the cup:
2 “ We give Thee thanks, Our Father, for the Holy Vine of David Thy servant, which Thou hast made known to us through Jesus, Thy Servant.”
“To Thee be the glory for evermore.”
3Next concerning the broken bread:
“We give Thee thanks, Our Father, for the life and knowledge which though hast made known to us through Jesus, Thy Servant.”
“To Thee be glory for evermore.”
4 “As this broken bread was scattered over the hills and then, when gathered became one mass, so may thy church be gathered from the ends of the earth into Thy Kingdom.”
“For thine is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for evermore.”
5 Let no one eat and drink of your Eucharist but those baptized in the name of the Lord; to this, too, the saying of the Lord is applicable: Do not give to dogs what is sacred
10 After you have taken your fill of food, give thanks as follows:
2” We give Thee thanks, O Holy Father, for Thy holy name which Thou has enshrined in our hearts, and for the knowledge and faith and immortality which Thou has made known to us through Jesus,Thy Servant.”
“To Thee be the glory for evermore.”
3” Thou, Lord Almighty, hast created all things for the sake of Thy name and hast given food and drink for men to enjoy, that they may give thanks to Thee; but to us Thou has vouchsafed spiritual food and drink and eternal life through Jesus, Thy Servant.”
4 “Above all, we give Thee thanks because Thou art almighty.”
“To Thee be glory for evermore.”
5 “Remember, O Lord Thy Church: deliver her from evil, perfect her in Thy love, and from the four winds assemble her, the sanctified, in Thy Kingdom which Thou hast prepared for her.”
“For Thine is the power and the glory for evermore.”
6” May Grace come, and this world pass away !”
“Hosanna to the God of David!” “If anyone is holy, let him advance if anyone is not let him be converted. Marana tha! “Amen.”
7 “But permit the prophets to give thanks as much as they desire. ”
Does that answer any questions or raise more for anyone?
As far as the Orthodox teaching on Communion, it’s the same as the Catholic Church. Catholics allow even members of the Orthodox to receive Communion in a Catholic Church-- however, this is not reciprocated and is usually frowned upon by the Orthodox heirarchy (but not always). The Orthodox view Rome as having “broken away” during the Schism of 1062, while Rome tends to view it the other way (perspectives...). Catholics give the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) primacy, while the Orthodox were only ever willing to concede the title “first among equals” without any special or infallible character. Orthodox liturgy is beautiful (I’m hoping the current Pope will encourage a return to a more pre-conciliar style liturgy in the Catholic Church). But views on Communion in the Catholic and in the Orthodox churches are relatively the same. Most Eastern (Orthodox) churches tend to receive Communion in a different style (some combine the Body & Blood and communicants receive the Eucharist on a golden spoon from the priest), while in the West we tend to keep them separate. (I struggled with whether I ought to be Orthodox or Catholic for a while, and talked with an Orthodox priest over differences, but I am by no means an expert on the Orthodox faith).
I’m actually surprised that you seem so interested in liturgy… it’s usually a very taboo subject among most Christians I’ve encountered. There are not many who find dignity in ritual. What encouraged your interest in liturgy?
The Didache is a very good work of the early Church… I love the opening line: “There are two Ways: a Way of Life and a Way of Death, and the difference between these two Ways is great.”
