Shlog Section-f

Ok, Shaun suggested we bring the coversation over here, so I’m going to give it a go.

This is one of those topics that is not resolved in my mind/heart, and so I appreciate other’s insight and especially those who are quite a bit more knowledgeable than me.  First I’m going to post my comment over from shlog and then add a bit so you can understand where I’m coming from.

Actually, on the topic of the Old Testament and homosexuality, it’s not all that clear to me.  Several scholars would say it was only temple prostitution that was forbidden. 

In fact, when this very blog (and a good friend coming out) caused me to research the issue, the only passage in Scripture that seemed one hundred percent clear on the issue was Romans 1.  Incidentally, it’s also the only place lesbian sex is mentioned.

So I actually think it would have been enormously helpful if there was a report of Jesus saying something about homosexuality.  This is actually a very troubling issue to me and it’s not as clear as whipping out my Bible and reading Leviticus.  In fact, I would love to come to a why answer about it being a sin, just as we are discussing the whys of church.  I think prejudice plays a huge role in the church response and reaction and I often shudder when I think about the way Christians talk about people who are absolutely convinced, to their great sorrow, that they irreversibly are attracted to members of their own gender.  Sorry for derailing, but it’s sort of one those things that gets my attention, because it troubles me so and I’m always hoping someone can give me an answer to put my mind at rest.

I just want to add that until like a year and a half ago, homosexuality being a sin was one of those things I just believed without really thinking about why.  But then a good friend came out and also said she was still a Christian and I wondered how she thought that could even be possible.  So someone over on shlog referred me to another message board where there was a HUGE discussion and pages and pages and pages of reading on the topic.  It stirred up tons of questions within me, that to this day still come up.  I struggle with this, because it’s pretty well accepted now that homosexuality is an orientation.  So if someone cannot change what they are why would God even allow such a thing to happen.  If the act of sex with one’s own gender is sin, and you are only attracted to your own gender, you are pretty much doomed to a life of loneliness--at least of never “falling in love”, especially in our family worshiping society.  Additionally, unlike other things, I cannot really understand why it is a sin in a loving adult consentual relationship.  (like i can see why lying, adultery, murder, stealing, etc.  are.)

I realize that this is many ways a question about my faith and my understanding of God and perhaps that why it is so important to me. 

I invite anyone to share with me their thoughts and understanding, but please I ask that you refrain from merely quoting Scripture at me.  I am well aware of the verses that talk about homosexuality and also aware that there are numerous translations and understandings of them.  If there is a way you have come to have peace in your heart about this, I really look forward to what you have to say.  If you can give me additional historical understanding, I’m excited about that, too.  I long for thoughtful reasonable discussion about this and please, please please let’s leave our prejudices at the door.  Thanks so much everyone!

Additionally, unlike other things, I cannot really understand why it is a sin in a loving adult consentual relationship.  (like i can see why lying, adultery, murder, stealing, etc.  are.)

I feel like I have to comment on this and share with you my thoughts.  On the one hand, I can see where you’re coming from - if they’re consenting and they’re happy, how can that be a sin?  But what if me and my brother (two consenting adults) were in love?  Would you see that as a sin or not?

The point here is that even if something makes you happy, doesn’t mean it’s not a sin.  That gets into relativism, which doesn’t cohere with the Scriptures (the whole “I’ve got my morals, you’ve got yours” kind of deal).  There’s that verse (I forget which one) that basically says Jesus “is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one goes to the Father but through him.” That doesn’t fit with society’s relativism.

Sorta got on a tangent there.  I believe that homosexual BEHAVIOR (not homosexuality in itself) is a sin.  Nowhere in the Bible does it say it’s okay.  I differintiate (sp?) between behavior and the actual orientation.  Maybe it’s something you’re born with, maybe not.  But aren’t we supposed to turn away from our sinful natures and follow God?  It’s like alcoholism (which is possibly genetic).  Being an alcoholic is not a sin, but living in a lifestyle where you abuse alcohol is.  See my point?

Homosexuality is a tough subject.  I think I’ve become more tolerant with it since going to a liberal women’s college for four years and being exposed to lesbian couples and a different way of thinking.  I personally believe it’s still a sin to live in a homosexual lifestyle, but I’m more tolerant in that I respect that it’s their life, not mine, and I can’t force people to change.  And it’s not my job to force people to change - it’s ultimately up to them, if they so desire, and God’s will, whatever it may be.

Thanks Kristen for your thoughtful response. I want to clarify that I agree that homosexual behavior is a sin.  I may not understand why, but I do.

The incest point is a good one.  I actually think that happens a heck of a lot less, though.  And also, if you believe in a literal Adam and Eve...well, someone was sleeping with their very close relative at some point in history.  One way in which I can see that incest would be a sin is because of the severe complications for any child you might want to conceive in that relationship.

It’s not that I need to understand why sins are sins, it’s just that I usually can, if that makes sense.  I can usually see that God made laws that protect and serve our best interests.  And while they are quite difficult because of our rebellious nature, they are ultimately for good.  But with this, I just don’t see how it is harmful, apart from prejudice and hate.  It is, I suppose, ultimately a faith issue. 

Great thoughts!

Amy, I am taking a class at our church right now called Helping At-Risk Families.  Alot of the material deals with what our teenagers are faced with today, eating disorders, anger/rage, depression, etc.  Last night’s topic was Issues of Sexuality and one of the three topics was homosexuality.  If you’re interested in seeing the notes (the pastor just forwarded them to me), then PM me your email address and I will email them to you.

What do you all think about this?

I do believe that homosexuality is a sin.  I do not buy into the “scientific” studies that say persons are born homosexuals, except to say that yes, all humans are born into sin.  Every human being since Adam and Eve were born into sin as a result of the fall.  We must never lose sight of the fact that satan is the father of lies and the author of deception.  His craft is subtle, disguised in many ways, and very perfected.  ANY science that contradicts the Bible is not true science in any form or fashion. 

As for the question of incest occurring in the Bible with Adam and Eve’s offspring, scripture doesn’t directly address this, but it would seem plausible since the world began wit just two adults.  Genesis recounts the birth of Cain and Abel, and “other brothers and sisters” born to Adam and Eve but does not mention any other human beings being around at the time.  I believe that God allowed what we call incest today (and even later in scripture) in order to populate the earth.  It would seem that it had to occur on some level after the flood as well since there were only the members of Noah’s family (including the wives of his sons) who were spared.

All that to say this; homosexuality or any other sexually deviant behavior is no more or less a sin than any other sin man commits.  Sin is sin; plain and simple.  We ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.  I do not harbor any ill feelings, etc. against homosexuals or any other sinner for that matter.  Love the sinner, hate the sin.  I firmly believe that God is powerful enough to help anyone overcome and conquer any and all sins, addictions, etc. 

Beth

I hope that you all will be patient with me while I try to explain what is bouncing around in this empty skull of mine

Does God make homosexual people?  I struggle with this question.  I know that God is the potter and He makes some people for noble purposes and others for ordinary purposes.  I remember reading were Jesus was asked who sinned to make a man blind and Jesus replied that he was made blind so God’s glory would be revealed.  Dose God make someone gay so when they do not live a homosexual lifestyle, but live for God that God’s glory is being revealed.  Could a person be made this way because of the sinful and corrupted material that we give to God to weave together in a mother’s womb?  Does society make a person a homosexual by convincing a person that it is normal way to live? Is it a combination of all these?  We gave God faulty material to work with, society weighed in with that living this style of life is normal and God allowed a person to go down this path so God’s glory would be revealed when this person gives their life to Him and gives up this lifestyle. 

Beth you are so right when you said

(I am not sure why beth’s comment is in various colors.  I just clipped and pasted it.)

All I know is that God does things that I can fandom and probably will never understand as long as I am a live on this earth.  I just hope and pray that God will give me compassion and love for those whom I do not understand.

Thomas

Hi again everyone,

Nancy, on reparative therapy, I think that some people can, uh, change.  But I’m not sure that’s the end destination for everyone.

Beth and Thomas as far as people being born homosexual, I’m not sure I believe that either.  I don’t know what to believe because there is no definitive answer.  No one knows why.  There are often similar experiences (abuse, failure to bond with parent of same gender, etc.) but not always.  That’s what makes it so tough. 

So it’s just a really difficult issue.

I know, I know.  This is an old topic.  But I have been gone for… oh, two or three years… so cut me some slack.  I’m just hitting the threads that interest me.

First, there is no scientific evidence that homosexuality is hereditary.  There is no “gay gene.” Until the 70’s, homosexuality was listed as a psychological disorder by the APA.  It was removed from their list of disorders (along with pedophelia) when the gay community stormed the annual APA meeting and used strong-arm tactics, such as blocking the doors and the raucous demonstrations they’re so famous for.

Now, I was a psych minor, which means I know just enough to make myself sound like an idiot, and I’ve never read or studied anything that would even hint that homosexuality is anything but a psychological disorder.  It usually develops from abuse (physical or sexual) or gender role confusion.  Gender role confusion can be many things: the absence of a masculine father figure/presence of a domineering female in the home, societal cues, or self-image.  Self image is probably most important.  Many gays/lesbians are different.  They wouldn’t come close to societal norms even if they were straight.  Homosexuality is an easy transition for them, and one they probably don’t even know they’re making.  They’re weird.  Homosexuality is weird.  Therefore, they must be homosexuals.

Okay, that was the short version.  The bottom line is that while I don’t believe that homosexuality is genetic, I also don’t believe that homosexuals consciously choose to be homosexual.  And the factors that influence them often began at such an early age that they may legitimately believe they were born that way.  But, hey, I might be wrong.  Whatever the case, I can tell you for certain that they do not deserve our condemnation.  They deserve our (uncondescending) compassion.

With regard to scriptural support for homosexuality being a sin, you won’t find any statement that can be concretely interpreted as such a damnation.  There are examples where specific occurances of homosexuality are condemned, but it’s unclear if homosexuality is the only infraction incurring the condemnation, or, for that matter, if it’s really even an infraction.  Somebody mentioned Leviticus, and I find that interesting.  I’ve read Leviticus, and contrary to finding it boring, it fascinated me.  It also challenged the ideas I had about what was sin and what was not.  For example, Leviticus spends a not insignificant number of verses describing who exactly a man can sleep with.  It says not to sleep with a mother and her daughter.  Don’t sleep with a woman and her sister, etc.  Those aren’t surprising.  What surprised me was that it didn’t say a man couldn’t have more than one sexual partner simultaneously.  The author could have covered all the bases by simply saying, “Don’t have sex with more than one woman at a time.” Instead, the author gave a list of rules to govern a man having sex with more than one woman at a time. 

Don’t misunderstand me.  I’m not advocating threesomes.  I’m simply using that as an example.  Morality is far too often a product of its time.  Some other modern concepts that I don’t think are represented in the Bible, at least not in the Pentatuch, are: monogomy, free will, heaven/hell, and monotheism.  If you don’t believe me, then do some research of your own.

The fact that most Christians don’t want to accept is that Christianity has changed drastically from what it originally was.  To further complicate that, we may never know what it originally was.  Religion, in all shapes and forms, has continually evolved.  It’s impossible to say whether the Bible categorically denounces homosexuality.  It’s likewise impossible to say whether or not we should categorically denounce it.  Only a select few things have remained constant, and two of those are love and forgiveness.  I think it’s best to employ those when dealing with homosexuality, or anything that makes people different from us.

Finally, and this really is my last word on the subject, homosexuals make up a paltry 0.5 - 0.7 % of the American population according to the last census.  They love to claim around ten percent, and they are certainly vocal enough to make people buy that lie, but it is still a lie.  They are less than one percent, and their numbers are dwindling, not growing.  They don’t hurt anybody.  They don’t reproduce.  They aren’t winning any converts.  Given those things, what the heck do I care what such a small percentage does?  I’m not gay, and that’s good enough for me.